Can plant protein help us build muscle?

Did you know that you can build muscle just as effectively with plant protein as with animal protein?

In today’s episode, two experts on plant-based nutrition, Simon Hill and Dr. Will Bulsiewicz, explain how our bodies use protein to build muscle — and why plant proteins are so beneficial.

Simon Hill is an Australian nutritionist, physiotherapist, and podcast host known for his advocacy of plant-based dietary patterns. He’s also the author of The Proof is in the Plants.

Dr. Will Bulsiewicz is board certified in internal medicine and gastroenterology. He’s also a New York Times bestselling author. He's contributed to over 20 published scientific articles and more than 40 presentations at national meetings.

🌱 Try our new, plant-based wholefood supplement, Daily30+

Daily 30+ is naturally high in copper, which contributes to normal energy-yielding metabolism and the normal function of the immune system.

Learn how your body responds to food 👉 zoe.com/podcast for 10% off

Follow ZOE on Instagram.

Is there a nutrition topic you’d like us to explore? Email us at podcast@joinzoe.com, and we’ll do our best to cover it. 

Episode transcripts are available here.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Jonathan Wolf: Welcome to ZOE Science & Nutrition, where world-leading scientists explain how their research can improve your health.

Building and maintaining muscle becomes increasingly important with age. Without intervention, we naturally lose muscle mass with each passing year. This leads to weakness and decreased mobility, robbing us of our ability to live a full life. Luckily, it doesn't have to be like this. Maintaining muscles takes two things: exercise and protein.

But when it comes to protein there's confusion, strong opinions, and murky science around the best sources. And how much protein do we need anyway? Many people believe we must eat muscle to build muscle, which sounds like it makes sense. But many plants are packed with protein too. 

So the question remains, can we get broad shoulders from broad beans? Or must we eat calves for bigger calves? And if we were to reduce or even eliminate animal proteins from our diet, what would be the associated risks and benefits?

In today's episode, nutritionist Simon Hill and ZOE's own Dr. Will B. discuss the latest research on plant protein and muscle gain. In his best-selling book, The Proof is in the Plants, Simon examines a wealth of scientific literature in search of the unbiased truth behind plant-based eating. 

Will is a board-certified gastroenterologist, ZOE's U.S. medical director, and the author of Fiber Fueled. 

You'll finish today's episode with a better understanding of plant protein and how it differs from animal protein. And whether you're a herbivore or an omnivore, you'll learn to make protein work for you.

Simon and Will, thank you very much for joining me here today. 

[00:02:02] Simon Hill: Jonathan, thank you so much for having me. I'm a regular listener of your show and I love what you guys have done. I think you're an incredible host. And of course, I go back a long way with Dr. B. So really honored to be here. 

[00:02:16] Dr Will Bulsiewicz: It's kind of cool actually for me because I've recorded podcasts with Simon, I've recorded podcasts with Jonathan, and now I get to record podcasts with both of you, so I'm excited for what we can do.

[00:02:26] Jonathan Wolf: Well, that's very kind Simon, I think it's just because I warned you that there was a quickfire round of questions and you're sort of buttering me up now so that I take it easy on you, but it's not going to work, I'm going straight in. 

So, as you will know, having listened to this show, we have this tradition where we always start with a quick-fire round of questions and the rules are very simple.

You can say yes or no, or if you absolutely have to, a one-sentence answer. I'm going to start with Simon. Simon, are you ready to go? 

[00:02:58] Simon Hill: Let's do it. I am sweating a little nervous here, but let's go.

[00:03:01] Jonathan Wolf: Is it easy for most people to get enough protein through food alone? 

[00:03:09] Simon Hill: Yes. 

[00:03:10] Jonathan Wolf: Do we need to eat animals to get enough protein?

[00:03:13] Simon Hill: No. 

[00:03:14] Jonathan Wolf: Can you build muscle while eating only plants? 

[00:03:20] Simon Hill: Yes. 

[00:03:22] Jonathan Wolf: That wasn't so bad, was it? 

[00:03:24] Simon Hill: That was pretty easy, Jonathan. I mean, there's quite a bit of context that I would add to some of those. 

[00:03:28] Jonathan Wolf: We're going to unpack it now. Don't worry. But first I have a couple for Will. Does our body absorb plant protein in the same way as animal protein?

[00:03:37] Dr Will Bulsiewicz: Ooh, tricky one. I'm going to say yes, but I do want to unpack that a little bit.

[00:03:43] Jonathan Wolf: Okay. Are there things we can do to increase protein absorption from plants? 

[00:03:49] Dr Will Bulsiewicz: Definitely. 

[00:03:51] Jonathan Wolf: Final question, Simon. You can have a whole sentence. What do you think is the biggest myth about plant protein, 

[00:03:59] Simon Hill: That plants are missing one or more of the essential amino acids, all plants contain all nine essential amino acids.

[00:04:08] Jonathan Wolf: Amazing. Well, look, I want to really dig into that, but maybe just sort of start, why have we ended up here? I mean, I co-founded ZOE a little over seven years ago. And the idea then was how do we understand how to make smarter food choices for my body? That's what I was most interested in that could hopefully make me feel better, hopefully live more healthy years. 

And I've been on like a real journey in that I moved from a diet that was very heavy in meat when I started to a diet that is increasingly based on a wide diversity of plants. So I've sort of been on a personal journey. 

And in that time, I think we built a community at ZOE including all the great listeners to the podcast. They're very curious about the power of plants. And when we told them about this episode, they had like one common question. Can you get all the protein that you need just from plants? 

And now full disclosure, today I get most of my protein from the plants in my diet, but I also eat eggs and cheese and oily fish, but it strikes me that it's a fantastic question.

And I get to explore my curiosity about this with you, Simon and Will. Because both of you do eat only a plant-based diet and you also have a huge amount of expertise, Simon, in terms of helping people who want to transition to eating only plants while being healthy and strong. 

And I would just add for those of you who are on audio only are not on YouTube, I can tell you that both Simon and Will have managed to build a lot of muscle with their diet, which leaves me feeling like I have no excuse for my rather puny frame as I'm looking at the two of them, but there we go. So, I'm listening with great anticipation for all the little secrets.

[00:05:57] Simon Hill: Dr. B actually sent me a message earlier, Jonathan, and I believe he did a few bicep curls before this podcast. 

[00:06:03] Dr Will Bulsiewicz: I might do some during the podcast. 

[00:06:06] Simon Hill: He's particularly inflated right now. 

[00:06:10] Jonathan Wolf: Okay. All right. You've been called out there Will. So before we go to Simon, actually, Will, can I just start at the very beginning with you about what is protein?

[00:06:22] Dr Will Bulsiewicz: Protein is a building block, an important part of our body. And so we classically think about it as the building block of muscle or of bone, but it also is involved in signaling within the body and different biochemical reactions that are occurring throughout our entire body. 

It's also not just muscle and bone. There's other organs where protein is an essential part of building those organs. You think about the heart, the liver, the kidneys, we need protein in order to build those. 

And so protein is also part of our diet. And it's an essential part of our diet. And when we use the word essential in nutrition, what we mean is that you have to get this, you have to get this.

And so protein can be found in many different sources within our diet. The classic is animal-based foods. So eating red meat, so pork or beef, eating fish, poultry with these, what we're doing is we're literally eating the muscle of the animal. Right. And so naturally that's a high protein source. 

But there's also eggs, there's also dairy products that contain protein. But you know, the thing that we're here to discuss is the role of plant-based protein. And what's interesting is that plants contain protein, all plants contain protein, all plants contain amino acids. There's 20 amino acids and all plants contain the nine essential amino acids.

So plants absolutely can be our source for protein. In fact, among omnivores, even people who consume animal products, they also get a huge percentage of the protein from plants on a daily basis. 

[00:08:01] Jonathan Wolf: And Will you mentioned just within this, and I think it's come up in some of our previous podcasts, this idea that sort of these 20 amino acids sort of building blocks that could be turned into proteins, but you mentioned that nine of them were essential.

What's the difference between the nine essential and the 11, which therefore sounds they're not essential. Which feels like the less important ones being invited to the party. 

[00:08:26] Dr Will Bulsiewicz: Yeah, so I mean, you can think of these almost like Lego bricks, and the 11 non-essential Lego bricks or, or amino acids your body is able to produce for you. So you're not required to actually get that from your diet. Your body has the ability, the capacity to prepare that. 

Whereas the nine essential amino acids, again, this word essential means that we have to get it from our diet, that our body is not capable of producing it. And so those nine Legos, it's like we have to source somewhere else to be able to, those nine Lego pieces, we have to source somewhere else to get them.

When we're building muscle, when we're building different things within the body, these 20 amino acids become important players, because basically if one of them is not at an adequate level, that's where protein production stops. So in essence, we can only build in terms of what are the Lego pieces that we have available to us.

Our goal is to have adequacy of all 20 Lego pieces. But in order to accomplish that, we have to basically outsource these nine in our diet, make sure that we get an adequate amount of them. 

[00:09:31] Jonathan Wolf: Simon, can you maybe take us from here? So like we've got some idea that protein is really important. Nine in particular, you've got to get from elsewhere or that's it. 

Can you continue the story as we now start to talk about muscle? 

[00:09:44] Simon Hill: When we have a training stimulus, so we go out and we do resistance training, that acts as a kind of signal to the body to adapt and grow stronger. 

But in order to do that, it requires not only the signal that you provide when you're in the gym doing the workout, but it also needs these essential amino acids to kind of run what's called muscle protein synthesis. A complex name for building protein in skeletal muscle. And that's essentially how we can build a muscle and make it bigger and also increase strength as well at the same time. 

So when we think about building muscle, I think about the two kinds of primary what we call anabolic or building stimuli is the training. So the lifting of the load and then the consumption of protein and making sure you're having enough of those Lego blocks that Will spoke to there around, to actually build new proteins 

[00:10:49] Jonathan Wolf: And Simon, can you help us understand a bit more what's going on? Because I think when I first thought anything about muscles and I had literally never even been to the gym a decade ago. I never thought about, I think the broader question is about why muscles matter. 

And I think it'd be great maybe if you can touch on that because it's not just to have the body beautiful that the two of you have. Right. There are some important health benefits. 

[00:11:12] Simon Hill: Well, the protein from your diet is required for that remodeling to occur. 

To actually synthesize new muscle tissue and we are going into too much detail. There are proteins in muscle, actin, myosin, and these get broken down when you're training. And during the recovery period, if you provide the right nutrition, they can remodel and grow larger. So that's what hypertrophy means growing bigger.

And you can also improve the strength of that muscle tissue so you can now handle a greater load. If we think about the strength of anything, if you think of a plastic bottle, how much load can you put on that plastic bottle before it kind of crumbles or breaks? That's what we're doing, we're remodeling the muscle tissue to be able to withstand more force. 

Now, why is this important in the big picture? When I think about protein and optimizing protein intake, I'm thinking about kind of optimizing for two main things. 

One is physical function. So I want to be able to navigate my environment and do the daily activities that require force production, getting in and out of the car, carrying groceries, going up a hill, all of these sorts of things, right? Playing sport. 

And I also want to be optimizing for chronic disease, reducing my risk of cardiometabolic disease. And these are actually bi-directional because if later in life I become physically impaired, Jonathan, so I'm weak, I'm frail, I'm more likely to fall and fracture. Well, what does that do to my chronic disease risk?

It increases it because I'm more likely to become sedentary, which is a big risk factor for chronic disease. And with that sedentary lifestyle, I'm more likely to be putting on body fat. So I'm now gaining fat, losing more muscle tissue. And we call that sarcopenic obesity, which is a real problem. 

Now I said, it's bi-directional. Because it can happen the other way, if I just optimize for physical function and I eat as much protein as I can from animal protein, but I put myself at increased risk of cardiometabolic disease. Okay, so then I develop cardiovascular disease or fatty liver, or I have a heart attack or a stroke, that can then also make someone more sedentary and lead to impairment in physical function. 

So I'm thinking about protein optimization, thinking about optimizing for both of those. I want to build muscle, be strong and vital today, but I also want to lower my risk of having chronic disease later in life because I know that that's going to greatly affect frailty or can affect frailty as well.

[00:14:10] Dr Will Bulsiewicz: I think that this is one of the important issues that isn't discussed often enough around protein is that sometimes we see protein in a vacuum as if the only thing that matters is protein intake and therefore exercise capacity or how you look in a mirror or things of this variety. And I do understand those things are important.

Those are motivations for me too. But there's this tension that exists between those motivations and healthy aging. And most people at some point in their life will transition into prioritizing healthy aging. It typically happens somewhere around 40 years of age. And it seems like there's a tension between these things.

And that's one of the things that Simon's starting to get at here, which I think is an important part of our conversation today. 

[00:14:52] Simon Hill: And it's not that you have to have one, so you don't have to choose one or the other. I firmly believe you can have both. And Will just mentioned healthy aging.

And at some point, if we have the opportunity today, I want to talk about a new study that looked at protein intake and healthy aging as the outcome. 

[00:15:11] Jonathan Wolf: I think lets definitely get to that. I want to just make sure I understood a couple of things. I think you're saying that one of the dangers here is you might be chasing all of this protein in order to have better muscles now, because you want to have bigger muscles and therefore you're eating potentially this diet with lots and lots of red meat. 

And you're saying, well, in the long run, actually, you could end up having heart disease and various other things from this. And so in the long run, you're actually goi@}ng to be worse off with worse muscles and less fit as you think about it, not just in the next 12 months, but as you think about the decades ahead, is that… did I understand that right?

[00:15:48] Simon Hill: Precisely. 

[00:15:49] Jonathan Wolf: Just before we get into sort of plant versus animal protein, what are the typical sources of protein? And Will, you were saying that many of us are probably getting more protein from plants already than we realize. 

[00:16:01] Dr Will Bulsiewicz: Yeah, because I think that we dismiss, there's sort of a culture of dismissal of plant-based protein that we don't even consider the possibility that there could be a significant amount of protein in that burrito that's completely plant-based.

So within the plant world, all plants have protein. The amount of protein will vary by the plant. The amino acid balance, so among these 20 amino acids, the balance that exists will vary between the plants. 

[00:16:34] Jonathan Wolf: So they don't all have the same ratio of the different amino acids, whether I'm eating bread from wheat or I'm eating a piece of broccoli, it's not the same exact ratio of these 20 Lego pieces.

[00:16:48] Dr Will Bulsiewicz: It's not the same ratio. And then the same is true by the way, also for animal-based protein sources, so red meat, the distribution of these amino acids is not going to be exactly the same as it would be in an egg. 

So all foods have protein, all foods have all 20 amino acids. And there used to be this idea that if you paired whole grains with legumes together, that you would actually correct for this problem. Because the deficiencies of one would be balanced out by the other. 

And it's not actually true because if you consume an adequate number of calories, then you're actually going to fulfill, like if you eat enough of that food, you're going to eventually fulfill the amino acid needs that your body has, if you were to consume an adequate amount of that specific food.

But that being said, if you think about it, one of the ways that we can sort of maintain balance and harmony among these 20 amino acids and achieve an appropriate amount of each of them is by eating a wide variety of different plant sources because each different plant source is going to give us a different mix.

And so that mix really sort of balances out and you achieve that balance that we're looking for by combining them together. 

[00:17:54] Simon Hill: And that brings us back, Jonathan, to the myth that we hit on at the start with all plants contain all nine essential amino acids. 

So often people say, well, hang on, I thought there was complete and incomplete proteins and I thought plants were incomplete proteins. If you're saying that they have all nine essential amino acids, what do you mean? You often hear people say, yep, quinoa and soy, they're the only complete plant proteins. The other ones are missing something, Jonathan. 

[00:18:20] Jonathan Wolf: Now you're making me anxious because now I'm worried they're missing something I didn't even realize.

So you created the anxiety. Can you lower it for me? 

[00:18:27] Simon Hill: Right. So, like Dr. B just mentioned, these plants have different ratios of these essential amino acids and an incomplete protein doesn't mean that one or more of the nine essential amino acids is missing. 

Let's take rice for example. If you ate all of your calories just from one type of rice across the day, you would fall short on your daily intake for lysine.

That's how the definition of incomplete protein essentially came about. Lysine is one of the nine essential amino acids. It's one of the Lego blocks that Dr. B said if you're running short on one of those nine essential amino acids, then you'll essentially stunt this protein synthesis process, the ability for your body to produce new proteins.

That's quite an extreme example. Not many people are going to be eating all of their calories from white rice, not in developed Western nations. Even if you're eating a plant-exclusive diet with modest diversity, you will get all of those nine essential amino acids that you require in spades. 

[00:19:31] Jonathan Wolf: So my mother, I think always sort of said, well, if you eat like a vegan, you're going to end up like not getting all the essential things that you need. And look at them, they all look sort of weak. You were not her poster children for vegans either of you, it has to be said. 

I think what you're saying is if you were only to eat rice or sweet potato or something to be a vast fraction of your diet, then you have a problem.

If you're eating a lot of different types of plants, you're saying that this falls away as far as getting all the protein, these different essential amino acids you're describing. 

[00:20:06] Simon Hill: I think you need to be protein aware, particularly as you move along the spectrum to plant-exclusive. You know, there is this kind of camp, I guess, out there who think vegans don't really need to focus on protein at all and it just takes care of itself. 

I'm not of that view, Jonathan. I think some degree of intentionality is good and warranted. And so I would like people to know what are the high protein plant-based foods. And I would like people to be conscious of making sure that they're getting a good amount of protein in each of their main meals throughout the day and not just assuming that just eat a wide variety of foods and it automatically takes care of itself.

I think some intentionality is needed and particularly if you are someone, let's say postmenopausal women who are at high risk of osteoporosis, osteopenia as it is, as a population often are consuming less calories than they used to. 

So as your calorie budget comes down and you're eating less, you need to be even more conscious of making sure you're getting enough protein in your diet. So I don't think we need to be protein-obsessed, but I do think you need to be. 

[00:21:27] Jonathan Wolf: Just before I go and talk about all the other sort of tips for how to build muscle with plant protein, I think it was one question that we touched at the beginning, Will, that I really want to make sure we've discussed because it feels like it's really central to this. Which is this question about whether plant proteins and animal proteins have been absorbed by the body in the same way.

And what we can do to make sure about absorption. Because I think what I'm taking from this is really interesting because I know Simon, you're a big proponent of being able to have like an exclusively plant-based diet, and you are also saying though, that if you make that step, you do have to think more about protein. 

And so what's going on? You said that the plants all have the same number of proteins, they all have the same nine essential... So why, what's going on here Will? 

[00:22:12] Dr Will Bulsiewicz: Yeah. So we hear Jonathan, like there's this word on the street that plant-based protein is less bioavailable than animal-based protein.

And that's actually true, I actually believe that to be true, but it's not because plant-based protein is not accessible to the body in its native form. It's the way in which we're consuming the protein that is different. 

So let me sort of unpack this. I'm glad we get to talk about this. So when you consume plant-based sources of protein, it basically means you're eating plants. Right. Fruits, fruits, vegetables, whole grains, seeds, nuts, and legumes. 

Well, there are some nutrients that are exclusive to plants and found in all plants that you know are going to be a part of this equation. They're going to be a part of what you just consumed. One is fiber, the second polyphenols, by the way, these are like classes of nutrients, broad classes, but fiber and polyphenols.

And then many plants also contain these things called phytates or phytic acid. And so these nutrients, like particularly the fiber and the polyphenols, we celebrate them. For example, at ZOE this is a big part of what we recommend is more fiber, more polyphenols. Yet, the fiber and the polyphenols change the way in which our body is able to process and break down the protein.

And so it's the presence of the plant-based protein within this sort of broader context that includes fiber and polyphenols and phytates at the same time that affects the absorption of the protein. 

Now is that a bad thing? No, because the fiber and the polyphenols, these are the things that many of us are missing in our diet that we frankly want more of.

And that can help us to live longer lives with less disease. So I think that the point isn't that plant-based protein is diminished or lower quality or not as good. I think that the point is that when you consume plant-based protein, it's being delivered along with these other elements that do affect the way in which our body processes and digests it.

If you looked at it in isolation without these other elements, you would see that plant-based protein would be equally bioavailable or very similar to animal-based protein, but that's just not the way that we consume our food. 

[00:24:31] Simon Hill: So Christopher Gardner, who I know you guys know very well at ZOE, he wrote a wonderful paper with Francois Mariotti on protein sources and bioavailability.

Because there is this idea out there, as you say, Jonathan, that plant protein is much less bioavailable, that it's not absorbed and utilized by the body as well as animal protein. And I think it's important for people to understand some of the historical context there. And the early studies that were looking at this were almost exclusively animal studies.

So mice and pigs, usually, a lot of pig studies. And what's really important to understand here is that those pigs were fed raw, so uncooked rice and legumes. So they feed the pigs animal proteins, they feed the pigs these plant-based foods, and then they're looking at how much is absorbed.

And we know that cooking, so soaking and cooking grains and beans actually makes the protein significantly more bioavailable. So a lot of those earlier studies from the seventies, eighties, and nineties, looking at differences in absorption from animal to plant protein, overestimated the difference because the plant proteins were not prepared as you and I would actually consume them. 

And since then there's been human studies. And although we haven't yet tested every single plant protein, well, the data that we do have suggests that any difference in bioavailability is probably only a few percent and that's written quite clearly in Christopher Gardner’s paper. 

But what I would say to people is we can run the risk of getting too reductionist here and thinking about percentage bioavailability and chart it out and say eggs are slightly better than tofu. So let's take more eggs. 

Well, I would say what do you care more about bioavailability or absorption percentage, or do you care more about heart health outcomes? So building strength and muscle, or reducing your risk of developing a disease. 

Because when we zoom out and look at health outcomes and you compare a diet that is getting exclusively protein from plants to an omnivorous diet. As long as total protein is high enough, what we'd say is optimal, there is no difference hypertrophy. So the building of muscle or strength. And there is more than one randomized control trial now that has looked at that in both male and female adults. 

A study out of Brazil and then another one last year or the year before out of Canada, which has actually changed the view of a lot of the main researchers in the protein space. Who previously thought at the same protein intake level, animal protein would be superior for those health outcomes?

So for me, when I'm kind of deciding what protein sources I'm going to have, I'm not getting so caught up in the bioavailability, percentages. I care more about my ability to build muscle, recover and lower my risk of having a heart attack or a stroke. 

And it's so consistent across the body of research that from a performance point of view, you can get just as good results with plant protein as animal protein. But the real big benefit, the benefit that's up for grabs here is that as you swap calories from animal protein for plant protein, you dramatically reduce your risk of chronic disease. 

And so you improve your odds of healthy aging, which brings us back to the beginning of the conversation when we were talking about optimizing for two things at once.

[00:28:33] Dr Will Bulsiewicz: Right. And that's an approach that requires no compromise, right? Because basically what you're saying is that you can achieve your fitness goals with an adequate amount of protein intake yet simultaneously advance your longevity goals, improve your life expectancy by making choices that are oriented towards more plant-based protein.

[00:28:56] Jonathan Wolf: I mean, I think the message there is really clear. But I haven't managed to land this with my son at all. 

So Simon, let me paint this picture and I'd love to hear what you would say. So my son is 16, right? So he's sort of going, he's shot up, a year ago, he was shorter than me, now he's much taller than me. He started to get interested in the gym in the last nine months or something. It's incredibly depressing because like he goes to the gym, he lifts some weights and the following day, all like his muscles have literally grown and you were discussing this before.

I'm laughing because at this point I can't put any muscle on at all. It's not happening, but for him, it feels like it's sort of magical. And he's got really interested. He's really excited by this, which I think is very understandable that he's starting to get stronger. He wants to be stronger than me or the rest of it. 

And he absolutely believes he needs to eat red meat because he wants to maximize this sort of growth that's going on. And we eat a very good diet at home, very much driven by myself and my wife in terms of what our ZOE app is telling us to eat. So he has quite a lot of that. And then he's like, but I need to add steak around the side of it.

I guess my question is what's your message to him and how would you be trying to take him on a pathway that reduces the red meat, which tends to come packaged in like a burger with fries, right? So it's there's a whole package with this generally. And I'm thinking maybe he might listen to you because he certainly doesn't listen to me. 

[00:30:26] Simon Hill: Well, first of all, I was him, so I'm kind of speaking to myself here, and society has taught us if you eat muscle, you build muscle and it kind of, intuitively, it makes sense. We can see that you take the muscle off an animal, you eat that, and all of a sudden you're going to be Popeye, these big bulging biceps.

But what I would explain to him is that when you eat food that has protein in it, whether it is meat, whether it is a legume or tempeh, the body doesn't just absorb that protein. First, it breaks it down into amino acids and then they get absorbed into the bloodstream. 

So by the time those essential amino acids are floating around in the blood, Jonathan, they're not tagged Oh, that leucine came from pork and that leucine came from beef and that leucine came from tempeh. At that stage, they're just amino acids. It doesn't matter where they came from. 

What's important is that you're getting enough of those nine essentially amino acids into circulation. It doesn't matter where you're getting them from, if we're talking about a hypertrophy growing muscle point of view, I believe it matters a lot in terms of chronic disease because of all the other things that come in the protein package that influence chronic disease risk.

But providing you're consuming enough total protein, you will be supplying enough of those nine essential amino acids into circulation to support the work that you're doing in the gym.

And if he said to me, well, how do you know that? I would point to these clinical studies where they take healthy adults, like in Brazil, they took males in their twenties and got them on a resistance training program, had one group consuming, all protein from plants. And this was a high protein diet, 1.6 grams per kilogram. And the other group an omnivorous diet at 1.6 grams per kilogram. 

And they followed these people for eight to 12 weeks, say they're eight or 12 weeks and along the way, they're doing the resistance training and then measuring changes in muscle size and strength. 

And throughout that study, there was no significant differences between those young men who are eating an omnivorous diet, so they were getting protein from red meat, as you just mentioned there, and from white meat fish versus the group who was getting all that protein from foods like tempeh, tofu, lentils, et cetera. 

And so that's just further evidence for us that if you're consuming enough total protein, you don't need to be worried that somehow, if that protein is coming from plants, it's inferior, a legume like an edamame bean isn't going to build muscle as good as a piece of steak that that's a myth.

It's a story that we've kind of told ourselves and I understand how it kind of feels intuitive and I was there once, but when you understand the physiology, you realize that that's not a fear that we need to hold.

[00:33:41] Jonathan Wolf: All right. Well, I will see whether I can convince him on this. I think when I do, he will immediately say then, all right, then I really do need to know though, which of the plants that I need to eat that are going to those high levels of protein. 

Because in his case, I think he is in that rare group of people who is putting on a lot of muscle and is doing quite a lot of exercise. Not just in the gym, which I know you've talked about, but also he's going off to school, carrying all his heavy books. like he's physically just a lot more active than I suspect most of us are in our adult lives.

[00:34:17] Simon Hill: So that brings us back to that main food group is going to be legumes. Tofu and tempeh are really protein-dense plant-based foods. Then we can kind of move further along the spectrum to chickpeas and lentils and all the different varieties of beans. 

There are some other foods like seitan, if someone is not sensitive to gluten or celiac that contains gluten that's very protein dense. A lot of plant-based bodybuilders will consume seitan. It's not for everyone, but if you can tolerate gluten, then that might be one that you want to include as well. 

The plant-based milks and yogurts that are high in protein, you're going to be getting protein from all your fruits and vegetables and nuts and seeds as well.

And then, typically bodybuilders are having a protein supplement for convenience, or also from a satiety point of view, it can be difficult to eat enough protein. People often feel too full to eat another meal. 

So in this instance, you'd be swapping out a dairy kind of whey protein concentrate or whey protein isolate for some type of plant-based protein, like a pea-protein isolate or rice protein isolate or blend of the two. 

And by focusing on those foods I mentioned, plus the addition of a protein shake, he should comfortably be able to get to 1.2 to 1.6 grams per kilogram of body mass as his protein intake per day, which the evidence suggests is more than enough to actually help support that muscle remodeling that we were talking about. So to support the training that he's doing and get the adaptations that he's looking for. 

But at the same time, all that protein is coming with the fiber, with polyphenols, it's low in saturated fat, doesn't contain dietary cholesterol, doesn't contain heme iron and it's all of these things that coalesce to provide a more favorable environment or a shift in biomarkers that predict risk of cardiometabolic disease.

So he's going to be in the gym competing with his friends, setting records, building muscle, but he's also protecting his future.

[00:36:57] Dr Will Bulsiewicz: Coming at this as a dad with kids, sometimes they need to come to this decision on their own. And so you have to sort of put them in a position where they can discover the information that they're looking for. And then basically like it was their idea. They came up with it in the first place. 

And I can't help but think about the fact that all of these foods that Simon is mentioning, legumes, specifically tofu and tempeh, seitan, which by the way, thank you for mentioning that like most people don't realize that gluten is actually a protein. So this gluten-rich food is actually protein-based or plant-based milks, like organic soy milk, nuts and seeds, all these different things. 

These are the same foods that are prioritized in a ZOE-oriented diet. And I do think that there is this value where ZOE is not necessarily designed specifically to talk to people who desire to be a bodybuilder. 

But it helps to give you sort of the nutritional foundation that you're looking for that you can build from, in terms of understanding why you would be eating more plants. And that motivation that comes from that or understanding how eating more plants impacts your gut microbiome.

And earlier, Simon, you mentioned that I thought this was interesting. I didn't want to interrupt you. You mentioned that there was a bi-directional relationship between fitness and cardiometabolic health. And I actually, in my mind, I can't help but think this way, I wanted to pop in and say, I see it as a tri-directional relationship.

The third party is the gut microbiome, and we know that the gut microbiome And we've seen this in our work at ZOE is connected to cardiometabolic disease. And we have our Method study that shows that by basically changing, I mean, it's a whole package. It's not just the gut microbiome, but we show that we can basically improve these cardiometabolic risk factors.

But there's also an entire body of literature that's completely separate that connects the gut microbiome to our muscle. Where we could go so far as to say that there's a gut microbiome-muscle-axis where they're in communication with one another. And what we see is that like, whether it be mouse models or human studies, a healthier gut is present when people exercise also a healthier gut is associated with muscle mass.

And that if you were to deprive, for example, a mouse where it's easier to do these studies if you deprive a mouse of a healthy gut by giving it antibiotics, it loses muscle mass. 

And so I think that there's this broader picture that needs to be seen that you've been mentioning that like we get into a tunnel view. And yet we have to zoom out and see this bigger picture of, we can accomplish all these goals. 

So to me, one of the thoughts, Jonathan, that I have, as I think about your young man in your house is he's not going to want to listen to you. That's the reality. And if I were his dad, it's not you. If I were his dad, he wouldn't listen to me either.

But I do think that he's someone who does want to do it, right? He has that motivation and he has to, in some ways, find it on his own. And maybe that's where these types of things can help. 

[00:40:05] Jonathan Wolf: That's interesting. So really I should get him to do ZOE and then, because it's not so interesting to me. It was exactly the same story with my wife though. She didn't listen to a word I said either until she did ZOE and suddenly gave all this advice and she changed all of her diet. 

So I was struck that you, Simon, you were talking about some plants that are really familiar, like nuts or lentils, people know what they are. But then you mentioned things like tofu and tempeh, which until a few years ago, I had never heard of. 

And Will, you were just talking a bit about how someone might be helped to understand how to use, that it's like, how can you be better able to make this adjustment where a lot of the foods that we're talking about are not necessarily the foods that we grew up being fed by our parents and maybe are not the foods we're used to being surrounded by.

[00:40:56] Simon Hill: I would say that the first kind of thing to understand here is that foods like tofu and tempeh, they really are a vehicle for flavor. And often we forget this.

So we take out our favorite animal-based protein sources like let's say chicken that typically we would prepare a certain way. Maybe we have a favorite marinade or herbs and spices or things that we add to make that flavor some to enjoy it. And we forget that and throw some tofu in the pan maybe with a little bit of olive oil or tempeh and we expect it to taste just as delicious. 

And certainly there are people out there who that is how they consume their tofu or tempeh. I like to add spices and cayenne pepper and cumin and paprika or turmeric for a tofu scramble. I think you need to be prepared to bring flavor into the dish to create whether it's like a Mexican flavor you're looking for or Japanese or Thai.

So that is a little bit of a learning process at the beginning, but then you soon get your favorite combos and it's so quick to cook tempeh or tofu. It really requires very little preparation and cooking time. So that's just something new that you need to learn and just be cognizant of when you're trying these foods for the first time.

[00:42:33] Dr Will Bulsiewicz: Yeah, I think don't put too much pressure on yourself. So like trying to make a hard transition all at once is quite overwhelming. And I don't know that anyone like for most people, that's just not the way to approach this. I think that the better choice is to start off by setting very realistic expectations, something that you can accomplish and that's quite sustainable.

So for example, like take this week and let's choose one meal and try something new and look for a recipe that you're excited about and that you believe will be delicious. 

Many times what I find to be delicious are ethnic based foods. So Simon already mentioned this, but like there are cultures from around the world that use different spice patterns or different flavor profiles.

And, foundationally, quite easy to create plant-based foods, whether you're in Japan or in Thailand or in India or in Italy or in Mexico, these are all different food cultures yet they have plant-based foundations. 

So leaning into that and then working in these ingredients that Simon's describing like tofu and tempeh, or just beans and lentils and things of that variety as well. You don't have to necessarily do the tofu and the tempeh. 

[00:43:51] Simon Hill: And you can even create some combination dishes. So perhaps you have your favorite lasagna recipe with minced meat. Take out half of the minced meat and add in lentils, things of that nature. 

So you're bringing in the plant-based protein sources in a manner where it's not all or nothing. And I think that's an important message here that Will just kind of alluded to, but the average person's protein intake, I mentioned earlier, it's about 1.2 grams per kilogram per day, 70 to 85% of that is animal protein, right? So only 15 to 30% of someone's daily protein intake is currently coming from plants.

People can get significant improvements in cardiometabolic disease risk just by getting more towards 50/50, or maybe it's 25% animal protein, 75% plant protein. So I think that's kind of an important thing just for people to also keep top of mind. It's not an all-or-nothing play here.

And in that study that I alluded to earlier, just very quickly, cause I know we don't have time to dig right into the details. This came out last week, Jonathan. 

[00:45:05] Jonathan Wolf: We always love an up to date sudy go on. 

[00:45:06] Simon Hill: This study came out of Walter Willett’s group at Harvard. They enrolled nurses into a study back in the 1970s, and in this particular study, they looked at 40,000 plus women that had been tracked since that time to up to today. 

So we're talking 40 plus years of tracking and importantly at the beginning of that study, these were people that were free from chronic disease. They had no memory impairment. They had good mental health, no physical function impairments. 

And they were able to establish how much protein these individuals were eating and where that protein was coming from. So was it coming from animal protein? They did a sub-analysis on dairy protein, or was it coming from plant protein? Over the 40 years, they completed this questionnaire every four years.

So it wasn't like they just took data at the very start of the study and then assumed that's how people ate. Because let's face it, our diet changes a little bit over time. 

So the main take-home point and they were interested in this sort of composite outcome of what they called healthy aging, which was being free from 11 different types of chronic disease, not being physically impaired, not having any type of cognitive impairment and having good mental health. That was what was called healthy aging. 

And over the duration of that study, people who were eating more plant protein were significantly more likely to not have any of the 11 chronic diseases, to not be physically impaired, to not have any type of cognitive impairment, and to have good mental health.

[00:46:47] Jonathan Wolf:  If they were eating less meat.

[00:46:50] Simon Hill: If they were eating less animal protein and more plant protein.

And so they did this substitution analysis and they were looking at what happens to the odds of aging in a healthy manner as determined by that criteria that I just mentioned. For every 3% of calories that you swapped out from animal protein and swapped in plant protein, they increased their odds of healthy aging by 40%.

That's the main take-home message from this study was that overall just protein in general was great from a physical function point of view. But when you dig in and you look at healthy aging in a more broader context that also includes not just physical function, but memory, mental health and chronic disease, plant protein came out far more superior than animal protein. 

People that were eating more of the foods rich in plant protein had better health outcomes. 

[00:47:51] Jonathan Wolf: Amazing. I think I have two questions and maybe I'd love to ask you before we run out. One is, we've talked a lot about sort of moving exclusively to plant-based protein.

And I'm an example of somebody who hasn't done that. I've reduced the amount of meat that I eat a lot, but I continue to eat eggs and particularly like fermented dairy, like cheese and yogurt and things like that. So I'd love your perspective on that from a health perspective versus an ethical perspective.

And I know that one of the reasons one chooses to give up everything that's animal based is for ethical reasons. 

And the second thing, I guess I'd love to ask you about, because this is after all the ZOE podcast, and it feels to me, it's a really good example here is how being a ZOE member might help you to understand these transitions.

Because I think one of the hardest things here is you listen to Simon talking about this is there's a lot of foods that are new, right? And like this transition from like the way that I've been brought up to eat to something different is I think for many people, one of the big blockers, right to actually improving their health. 

[00:48:54] Dr Will Bulsiewicz: Yeah. So, I'll speak for myself, although Simon and I have discussed this sort of question of ethical versus health-oriented nutrition advice. And the question that sort of comes up is what's the place or the role for eggs and dairy within that construct.

So there are clearly ethical motivations. So let's put those to the side for a moment. Eggs and dairy, if I were to arrange a hierarchy of protein sources and assign value in terms of like, what are the more helpful protein sources among the animal-based foods? They would be up near the top. I would, I would probably put oily fish above them.

I would certainly put fermented dairy above non-fermented dairy, and I would put eggs somewhere in this general spectrum. And what I would put down at the bottom quite clearly are things like ultra-processed meats. 

So, now within this sort of spectrum of protein sources, I would also put legumes above these as well. But most people are not eating a completely vegan diet. And really, I think part of the orientation here, and I actually think it gets into what is the role or benefit of ZOE within approaching this. Really, it seems to me that the benefit is improving our dietary quality period. And there are many ways in which we can accomplish that.

There's not just this one path that is one size fits all. That's the same for all of us. Ultimately, we're finding what works for us. And in doing that for many people, it's just a goal to try to elevate and basically make substitutions that are in their best interest.

So for the vast majority of people by replacing ultra-processed meats or red meat with eggs, dairy, fish products, seafood. They're clearly taking a step in the right direction. 

Would I love for them to consume more beans? Yes. People are not consuming enough beans. That being said, you can improve your nutritional quality by basically making these substitutions. 

So to me, this is like the big picture view is it's not about the individual food and whether it's good or whether it's bad. It's all points of relativity. What are you replacing with what? And can we elevate the overall quality of our diet? That's what I want to see people do. That's one of the things that ZOE clearly does. And we've shown that in our Method clinical trial is that people who followed ZOE improved the quality of their diet.

[00:51:24] Jonathan Wolf: One of the things I've personally got more and more concerned about is ultra-processed food, which is something I'd never even heard of seven years ago. And I feel it's a topic that just comes up more and more often as I'm talking to nutritional researchers, 

We talked about a lot of whole foods here, but Simon, you also did talk particularly for people who are like sort of weightlifters, which I suspect is a very small fraction of our audience, but I do want to address it.

You're saying, well, if they're not eating any of the eggs or oily fish or whatever, then actually protein might be a challenge. And you started to talk about supplements and you also talked about milk replacements that involved sort of what sound like ultra-processed food in terms of like particular protein.

How concerned do you think we should be about the sort of potential downside of that ultra-processed food versus the benefits maybe of getting a lot of protein?

[00:52:14] Simon Hill: I guess high level, I'm of the view that ultra-processed foods generally as a category is something that we want to consume less of, but not all ultra-processed foods are equal. 

So that's the first thing that I would like to point out we can go and choose two foods at the grocery store that would both meet ultra-processed criteria.  But I think most people would probably be able to distinguish between the two as to which one's healthier than the other. 

I think we have to just think about the current state of the average person's diet where 60% of calories are coming from the ultra-processed food category, right? Which is associated with increased risk of mortality and cancer and cardiovascular disease. And that's consistent across different populations. 

But I think that's different to the person that has overall what we would deem as a high diet quality, is getting a good amount of fiber in the diet, polyphenols, plant protein, micronutrients, carotenoids, and then is kind of supplementing that dietary pattern with a few strategic foods that maybe fall under the ultra-processed banner, but don't have the added sugars, And have some micronutrients like calcium that might be filling a gap and helping avoid a deficiency, rich in protein, helping someone get to an optimal protein intake to support their training.

I think in that context, it can be strategic and help someone achieve their goals, avoid deficiency, and there's a net positive. That's a roundabout way of me saying I think context matters and the individual ultra-processed food we're talking about matters. And this is an area that's greatly contested.

I think in the future what we'll see is the definition of ultra-processed foods will get more refined and there'll be ways of kind of teasing out which are the ultra-processed foods that are really associated and driving disease and which are the ones that technically are ultra-processed but could be featured within a healthy dietary pattern.

[00:54:32] Dr Will Bulsiewicz: I agree with you, Simon. I think that that's completely true. And we do see this play out. I think a part of this is first of all, the acknowledgement 0% ultra-processed foods, I think that's unless you live off the grid, that's pretty much impossible these days. I'm certainly not 0% ultra-processed foods.

Do I consume plant-based meats at times? Yes. Am I doing that because I think that they are the healthiest food for me? No, I make room for food that I enjoy. And sometimes when I'm grilling with my family on a nice summer day, when we're out by the pool, I will consume that food because it is good. It tastes good and it's fun. All right. 

And I think that that's okay to have that in your life. We just don't want it to be 60% of your life. And we see this play out, by the way, I just, I think it's worth pointing this out because it's kind of interesting where motivation and orientation makes a big difference. It's kind of like what Simon's saying about context.

So there's two well-regarded vegan and vegetarian cohort studies. One in the United States called the Adventist-2 study, which was among seventh-day Adventists. Now their orientation is towards bodily health, and it's a part of their community, like this is the way they live. And by the way, this is one of the blue zones.

And the other is the Epic Oxford study, which is based in the U.K. And this was a population of people that were vegetarian and vegan for ethical reasons. 

And we see if you look at the outcomes that exist within these two studies, even though people are describing themselves as vegan or vegetarian in both studies, they're quite different.

And in some cases, the vegetarians in Epic Oxford actually do worse than the omnivores. And the reason why is because their orientation is not a health orientation. It is an ethical orientation, which leads to, in many cases, the overconsumption of ultra-processed foods. So I do think that we need to have awareness of this.

If your goal is to be more healthy and you're moving towards more plant-based foods when they're whole plant-based foods, you're making a healthful choice. Is it going to be a hundred percent of your diet? Probably not. And it doesn't have to be to be a healthy diet. 

[00:56:44] Jonathan Wolf: I think that's really clear.

And I think the only thing I'd add is I've been really interested in this whole topic since I first met my co founder, Tim Spector, and we started to create ZOE. 

And yet what's interesting is that my diet really changed at the point that my wife did ZOE. She got her results, decided to go for this, and therefore started to use all the recipes that were coming to her personalized to her to change what we ate at dinner. 

Because then suddenly I switched from eating a dinner that like probably had in the center, like a piece of meat each night, right? Which is definitely the way that I grew up. And therefore even though I was maybe wanting to eat more plants, it was sort of stuck around the side to suddenly, I think, Justine understanding how she could start to cook all of these meals where actually, plants were in the center.

That's the first time I had ever knowingly eaten a piece of tofu or tempeh also, like honestly, 36 months ago, I don't think I could have pointed to it on a plate and Simon is smiling as I say this.

And so I think it made a huge difference actually being able to understand that. And even now, I think the new recipes have a huge impact on what we eat because, for many people listening, I think you tend to eat what you're used to eating, right? And actually changing your cuisine, what you eat, is actually quite a hard barrier to think one of the things I never would have guessed at the beginning.

We thought this was all about the hardest science at ZOE, how do we give you these personalized results just for you? And I think, what's become clear is more and more. It's like, how do I understand how to make the changes for you? From what I'm eating right now, what are the tweaks that I can make step by step, week by week that are going to make it healthier?

You know, even like the 50/50, I'd never heard this before, the 50 /50 mince and lentil. I mean, I think if you scored that on ZOE, you'd see already that it massively increased the score. And sometimes I think people feel like everything is all or nothing. And that's sort of a scenario where you start to get very depressed, right? Because as soon as you do one thing wrong, it's all over. 

Whereas actually I love this general thing I've discovered through my journey over the last seven years and almost every time you eat something better, like you're making a difference to your health for decades. 

So you sort of celebrate all the upside rather than constantly focus, which I think comes from this world of calorie counting on, Oh, I failed this thing. And you beat yourself up. 

[00:59:01] Dr Will Bulsiewicz: Yeah, I agree. I've always said I would much rather be running to something that I'm excited about than running away from something that's scary. 

[00:59:09] Jonathan Wolf: Brilliant. Well, look, I would love to do a quick wrap up and we've gone over a number of different areas, but I think essentially this all the way through has been this idea that most of the things that we've been told about protein are just wrong.

So yes, protein is essential, that it consists of like these 20 Lego bricks. We talked about these amino acids of which we call nine essential because human beings can't make them themselves. We have to get it in our diet.

That we all grew up, and I grew up with this idea that you eat muscle in order to get muscle and hence this idea that you should eat a big piece of steak. Which is definitely how I could just think of my grandmother literally putting it in front of me and saying those words.

That critically we're surrounded by an environment that's constantly telling us we're not eating protein, but the truth is we're not doing enough exercise is what you're saying. That really the limiting factor is the strain going to the gym, walking up a hill with a bag on your bag. And that's really the constraint.

There is such a thing as an incomplete protein. So you were saying that if all you did was eat rice, for example, you would be short of one of these essential amino acids. But if you are thinking about having a really diverse range of plants, it's very unlikely. And as soon as you start to add in other things like eggs or dairy or a little bit of meat or any of the rest of it, like, this is not a real problem.

The reality is that in general we're living in this, I think you said a diet where people are having too much protein rather than too little. So this idea about plant-based protein being less bioavailable is something that like early research from 30, 40 years ago, people saw as a big deal. Now the most latest research says this difference is quite small.

So unless you're an Olympic athlete, this is not really something you need to be worried about. And as Will said, every time you're eating that bean, you're getting all this amazing fiber and polyphenols, all of these benefits. So again, this isn't really a big concern. 

And the critical reason is that once you eat this piece of steak or this bean, your body actually breaks it down into these 20 little Lego bricks and they scooted around your body and rebuild it. And your body doesn't know whether it came from a steak or a bean. And I think that's a brilliant explanation, Simon for why it doesn't really matter where it came from as long as you're going to get it. 

And then I think in terms of practicality Simon, you mentioned a lot of specific plants, which are really heavy in protein. You talked about chickpeas and lentils, all varieties of beans. 

You talk quite a lot about tofu and tempeh and these are things that I know come up in a lot of the recipes that I now sort of understand how to use that I didn't before. Also nuts and seeds, this wonderful thing called seitan that I've never heard of before. So we'll put a link to that in the show notes cause I don't think I could find that on the shelf.  

And then I think what you said was, it's not like you have to give up everything you're currently doing and switch to only plants. Even a partial shift away from these red meats and meats towards more whole food, plant, will make a big difference.

And you had this great example that you could even take out half the mince and put in lentils. You're already making that meal much healthier for you and you've still even got red meat in it as a transition. 

And that for many people listening to this, who are driven more by health than by ethical reasons, fish, particularly oily fish, eggs, dairy permit, particularly fermented dairy, much better than meat as this transition.

Things like beans, well, you would put even higher and I definitely score even higher for me on my app, because of all the added polyphenols and lentils. 

But this is a transition, so it's not sort of like you've got to be entirely on one side or the other, there's a sort of pathway. And if I would add one thing. It's just that interestingly for me, as I have reduced meat in my diet. I have become less and less interested in it. So what I would have said to you a decade ago, I couldn't possibly give up a steak. I love a steak. And what's interesting is that I don't like it anymore. And I never made an active decision not to eat it.

But it's quite interesting to me how your tastes can actually evolve. And I would leave that as a sort of positive sign that it's possible to go with this change towards health and actually feel better with it. 

[01:03:40] Simon Hill: I think the point that we'll make is one that shouldn't be lost on people in that this isn't about sacrificing your joy for food.

It's just about finding new ways to enjoy foods just as much, if not more, that are actually protective and rewarding you with better health in the long term. 

[01:04:00] Dr Will Bulsiewicz: Yeah. And I think for me, we came into this conversation asking the question, you replace meat with plant-based protein and still get the same benefits, still accomplish your fitness goals.

And my friend Simon here, I think is a testament to this because he's been living this lifestyle for many years and he is a huge dude. I'm just going to tell everyone he is like a moose. He's a giant guy. 

So, but humbly over here, I'm almost 10 years older than this guy. And I don't spend as much time at the gym as he does because I have four kids and I feel pretty good. 

I feel pretty good about the fact that I myself made this transition and actually I'm lifting more weight in my forties than I was ever able to lift in my teens or in my twenties. Much more weight than I could ever do,  much stronger, definitely putting on more muscle mass and simultaneously looking just as young as Simon Hill. 

So I feel pretty good about these things. 

[01:05:06] Simon Hill: And you have bigger biceps.  

[01:05:06] Dr Will Bulsiewicz: He definitely has bigger biceps. I'll give him that. But the takeaway for everyone though, and I think that it comes all the way full circle back to the beginning is that you can accomplish your fitness goals with plant-based protein. It does not hold you back. 

The key is not what you eat for your fitness goals so much as making sure that you have enough protein in your diet and you're exercising. Exercising is like the key ingredient for all of that. 

And I think that the other aspect of this is let's not lose track of the fact that you can look great on the outside and be rotten on the inside. That's not what you want to be. We want you thriving on the inside and the outside and plant-based protein is one of the ways in which you can accomplish that. 

[01:05:48] Jonathan Wolf: I think that's a lovely way to wrap up. And I'm already imagining this YouTube special combination of the two of you in the gym and then cooking afterwards.

So I'll be following up and seeing whether we can figure out how to do that. I think that would be fun. 

[01:06:01] Dr Will Bulsiewicz: Jonathan, we're going to come to London and we're going to work out with your son. We're going to come to London and we're going to go into the gym with them. 

[01:06:08] Jonathan Wolf: I think he would love it. Brilliant. Thank you so much. And, Simon, I hope we can get you back again in the future. 

[01:06:14] Simon Hill: Thanks, Jonathan. This was great. And you're a great host. Great listener. Really enjoyed it. This was fun. Thanks, Will. 

[01:06:22] Jonathan Wolf: Thank you.

I hope you learned something today and enjoyed the episode. If you listen to the show regularly, you probably already believe that you can transform your health by changing what you eat.

But now, there is only so much you can learn from general advice on a weekly podcast. If you want to feel much better and live many more healthy years, you need something more. And that's why each day more than 100,000 members trust ZOE to help them make the smartest food choices so they could feel better now and enjoy many more healthy years.

Combining our world-leading science with your ZOE test results, ZOE is your guide and coach to sustainable improvements to your health. So how does it work? ZOE membership starts with at-home testing to understand your unique body. Then ZOE's app is your health coach using weekly check-ins and daily guidance to help you shift your food choices so as to steadily improve your health. 

I rely on ZOE’s advice every day, and truly it has transformed how I feel. So, to take the first step towards the possibility of more energy, less hunger, and more healthy years, take our quiz to help identify changes to your food choices you can make right now.

Simply go to zoe.com/podcast, where, as a podcast listener, you can also get 10% off. As always, I'm your host, Jonathan Wolf. This episode of ZOE Science & Nutrition was produced by Julie Panero, Richard Willan, and Sam Durham. The ZOE Science & Nutrition podcast is not medical advice. It's for general informational purposes only.