Inside the daily routine of a top nutrition doctor: The 6 things you need every day to cut your risk of cancer and dementia

In this episode, world-leading nutritionist Dr Federica Amati shares what she eats in a day, from breakfast to dinner, and her six everyday habits that may lower your risk of cancer, dementia and help you live longer.

Federica walks us through a normal day, from waking up to bedtime, and gives you six pillars of a healthy lifestyle to focus on to reduce your risk of chronic disease.

Learn how Federica builds a healthy morning routine that cuts your chronic disease risk by 80%, how to put together a quick lunch, pick snacks that keep you full, and slip oily fish into meals you already love. Plus, her simple wind-down rules for better sleep.

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Actionable takeaways

What should you focus on most for good health?

Nutrition, sleep, regular movement, stress management, social connection, and avoiding risky substances are the key pillars of health. Build sustainable habits around them, rather than focusing on elaborate biohacks that cut into sleep or time with people you care about.

Do you need to stick to a strict daily schedule?

No. Try to wake up, have your meals, and go to bed at roughly the same times, but allow flexibility for family life, travel, and changing seasons.

Why are beans and wholegrains worth eating together?

Together they make a complete plant protein, with a good balance of all the essential amino acids. Their fiber also feeds your gut microbes and keeps you full for hours after eating.

What are some practical options when you’re eating on the go?

Look for a bean-based soup, or put together rye bread, hummus and vegetables from a supermarket. If choices are limited, fruit with nuts or yogurt can tide you over until you can have a more substantial meal.

Which fish should you eat for omega-3s?

Remember SMASH: salmon, mackerel, anchovies, sardines and herring (trout and sprats count too). Three portions a week is plenty, and tinned or jarred versions are just as good.

We don't buy the hype — and neither should you

Our new app reveals what the food labels won't, using data from the world's largest nutrition study run by ZOE.

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Transcript

Jonathan: Federica, is there one single perfect daily routine that everyone should follow?

Federica: No.

Jonathan: Is breakfast the most important meal of the day?

Federica: It can be, but not for everybody.

Jonathan: Should we all try to give up snacks?

Federica: No.

Jonathan: Is it possible to stick to a healthy routine even when your day is chaotic?

Federica: Yes.

Jonathan: At the weekends, is it best to have a big lie-in to catch up on sleep?

Federica: Not all the time, but there's always wiggle room.

Jonathan: Today, what we wanted to do was talk about you, Federica, and what you actually do, and that's because pretty much every influencer out there on the internet has at least one video at the moment where they explain what they do in the morning and what they eat each day, and how if you follow their routine, you can be as successful, rich, beautiful as they are. And there's a whole bunch of people with whole books laying out their protocols for how they live their day. But as always on the internet, the real question is, whose advice should I be following? And actually, can I trust any of this? And as one of the world's leaders in nutrition science, I'm really keen to know what your daily routine looks like, and also because I know that not only do you do all of this incredibly impressive science at work, but you're also a mother. You have a family. You have a real life. And so you're actually having to make all of those things happen without a huge entourage to follow behind you, make everything happen. So maybe we could start chronologically in the morning. I'm assuming that like most influencers, you wake up at 4:00 in the morning. You have a fistful of supplements, and then you do half an hour in your cryotherapy chamber, none of which sounds like much fun. Is this a good description of your morning routine?

Federica: Thankfully not. If I'm up at 4:00 in the morning, something's gone terribly wrong... either one of my children is ill or something's happened. No, I wake up around 6:00 to 6:30, which is around the same time my children wake up. I think anyone who has younger children understands that waking up time is not really up to us anymore. It is entirely dictated by the small people in our lives. So I wake up around the same time as them. They'll wake me up, or I'll wake up just before. And my day always starts with actually just getting up and going downstairs and having a big glass of water, brushing my teeth. It's actually important to drink when we wake up because a lot of us lose quite a lot of water overnight. We tend to breathe through our mouths, and if we have a dry environment, if the heating is on, for example, you can actually lose quite a bit of water.

Jonathan: How important for you is waking up at a consistent time?

Federica: So we wake up pretty much at the same time every day. Regardless of whether it's a weekday or weekend, I actually find that I wake up naturally around that time because my sleep schedule's pretty consistent. So I go to bed around the same time, and I wake up around the same time.

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Jonathan: Why do you care about consistency?

Federica: What I've learned and what is pretty clear is that our bodies like predictability. So if you think about our day, we have this 24-hour cycle circadian rhythm. So there's this really elegant set of hormones that fluctuate throughout the day. And so before you wake up, for example, there's this increase in cortisol, which helps to raise your blood pressure so that when you get up from your bed, you don't just flop to the floor. Very important. And then your insulin follows the cortisol and is primed to absorb as many nutrients as possible from your breakfast, right? So there's this really elegant balance that happens throughout the day, and if you work with it, actually, it helps to maintain what's known as this metabolic flexibility. So this ability of our body to shift and adjust throughout the day according to what activities we're doing and what we're eating. And consistency really helps to build that metabolic flexibility in, because our body receives the inputs it's expecting from its outputs. So your cortisol is rising to rise your blood pressure to get you out of bed. And if you get out of bed, it all makes sense, and then your cortisol goes back down as you move and you eat something. So you see, you're helping your body do its job more efficiently if actually your routine's pretty consistent. This doesn't mean you have to do exactly the same thing every day, but certainly what we see in the data is that if you wake up around the same hour every day, and you have breakfast around the same hour every day, and you go to bed around the same hour every day, your metabolic health tends to be better over time. Now, of course, there'll be times when, like we've had, Jonathan, you're traveling, you're jet lagged, it doesn't really work out. That's where the metabolic flexibility comes in, so that you can still feel good whilst you're doing those more irregular periods. But that can only be built in if you're consistent most of the time. So consistency most of the times helps to build resilience when that consistency isn't there.

Jonathan: So I think one thing that listeners are already picking up is that you're very thoughtful, in fact, about your routine, even if you aren't in your cryogenic, you know, therapy at 4:00 in the morning.

Federica: Yeah. And that's because what are the actual things that change our health? It is not the cryogenic chamber, and it is not the handful of supplements, right? What's really clear from all of the evidence is that the major levers for good health, and when I say good health, I really mean like 80% of risk for chronic diseases, type 2 diabetes, cancer, heart disease. About 80% of the sort of risk that we can help to reduce are all related to what we know as lifestyle medicine pillars. So this is really nutrition is a big one, sleep, movement or exercise, how you deal with stress- Social connections, so are you spending time with people you love? And how are you reducing your stress? So stress is external. We can't stop it from happening, but how are you dealing with that stress? What are you putting in place to make sure that when stress happens, you can actually respond to it in a way that's helpful instead of unhelpful. Those six levers predict 80% of risk.

Jonathan: 80%?

Federica: 80%. And if you can get four of them right, 'cause getting all six is actually quite hard in this day and age. If you can get four of them right, you can reduce your risk of chronic disease by around 60 to 70%, which is fantastic. That is the entire principle of preventative care, prevention, lifestyle medicine, which underpins how we think about helping people reduce their risk. Then, of course, medicine is incredibly helpful to intervene when something goes wrong, and then there are things like supplementation and, you know, cold water swimming, which have a fractional improvement, but if you don't have the sort of base done, then the rest can't really follow. You know, and I see this actually in clinical practice, Jonathan. People who are trying to squeeze in a lot of those biohacking culture things end up disrupting their sleep or perhaps they wake up early and leave their family and don't spend time with their kids so that they can go and do some crazy workout and then spend some time in a freezing cold bath. But you've just removed a really core part of your social connection and your sleep, so you have to weigh up what's actually worth doing.

Jonathan: I think one of the things that I've really changed my mind about- ... since, you know, being involved in ZOE is sleep. Because I've sort of come to the conclusion that I really need eight hours in bed with the light off in order to function, you know, as CEO and as a parent and these sorts of things. And it doesn't make any sense to wake myself up early to go and do some exercise- ... to then wreck that sleep. And it sounds like you have a very strong view that this sleep is one of the pillars that you are not willing to negotiate over, really.

Federica: I mean, yeah, it's my view, but it's also massively evidence-based. So we see that people who have chronic lack of sleep are at much higher risk of diseases like Alzheimer's, but also heart disease, high blood pressure, and there's some really interesting studies that look at what happens when the clocks go back. A lot of sleep scientists really would love everyone to stop doing that because when the clocks go back, there's a huge spike in heart attacks, strokes, and car crashes every year. Just that one-hour shift, so people are just waking up an hour earlier than usual, so this is when the clocks go back, right, in October. There's this massive spike in the data because our body isn't ready to get up yet, and especially if you're already at risk, so if you already have hypertension or perhaps you already have cardiovascular disease, just setting your alarm an hour earlier is enough to trigger a catastrophic event, and car crashes because you're not quite as alert as you should be when you get into your car to drive. There's a spike in car crashes globally. There's things that happen when we sleep that can't happen at any other point in our day.

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Jonathan: You've had your sleep. You've got the kids ready. I did hear you mention that you want to try and deal with stress. I personally find trying to get them- ... particularly yours are still quite small, like, out of the door successfully- Yeah ... for school, possibly the most stressful thing- ... I ever do in a week. Like, being the CEO of a company seems very easy compared to negotiating with a young child to sort of successfully get out of the house. So have you already undone all the good things with, like, the stress that happens here?

Federica: I don't know. I think, no. You know, this is, it sounds silly, but get the uniforms ready the night before and make sure they're actually creating a calm environment in the morning is quite a big part of what I do. So relaxing music on, go through it as peacefully as possible. There are obviously mornings when I'm like, "We're already late. Get in the car. Go, go, go." But actually, generally, we have a pretty steady routine. We know what works and doesn't work, so for example, like, no amount of TV in the morning works at all. Even if they're waking up early, just don't do it. I actually enjoy that time with my kids because it's often that time when I've got protected, uninterrupted time with them, so I try to frame it as an opportunity to really spend time with them, and that helps me deal with the stress of it potentially. For me, it's a privilege to be able to do the school run for them.

Jonathan: Oh, that's lovely. So tell me about your breakfast.

Federica: I don't have a breakfast I have every day. I love variety in my diet, but I love food, and what I feel like eating day to day changes. So some days I love eggs, and I make some eggs and rye bread and, you know, maybe some avocado with that. Other days, I couldn't stand the thought of eggs for breakfast. So it depends on what I feel like, but I do know that having a good breakfast in the morning really helps me to work at my best and be able to feel good for the rest of the day really. So I make a point of having breakfast. If I'm not feeling as hungry, then it might be a smoothie because it's just a bit easier and it's less faff. But I always have fresh fruit. I have yogurt or kefir. I have eggs and rye. I really try to mix up- Plenty of fiber with my breakfast and make it something that I really enjoy. And I also do make a point of, like, actually sitting down and eating it. I do have my cappuccino before I eat anything. So there's quite a lot of myths about not having your coffee on an empty stomach. It's not evidence-based. For some people, it can trigger, like, more IBS-like symptoms. If that's you, don't have it. But I have my soy cappuccino on the school run, so I take it with me and have it before I eat.

Jonathan: So you are having breakfast, but you're not having it, like, the first thing you do as you wake up. You've actually already gone and, like, taken the kids to school-

Federica: Yeah ...

Jonathan: come back, and then you're having your breakfast.

Federica: Yes. So for me, my breakfast is a bit later than the kids. I'm just not that hungry when they have theirs, so that works for me. Then there's some days if I know that I've got to go straight from school drop-off to a meeting, then I might bring something with me, have it. And I mean, our gut health bars are amazing for this, to be honest, because I just put that into my bag, a piece of fruit, and I'm out the door.

Jonathan: During the week, I always have the same breakfast, and I think it's because I have so much control over what I have for breakfast- Yeah ... and often I'm a lot less certain about what control I will have over lunch and dinner, and I really want to be basically in a position where I won't be hungry until lunchtime. Yeah, exactly. So I always have Greek yogurt and kefir, 'cause you taught me that if I mix the two together, I get, like, the bonus of, like- Yes ... all the fermented food and the protein and everything. Always a bunch of fruits, like berries, all these things that, like, have a lot of fiber 'cause I remember Tim explained to me, like, lots of little seeds in is good, so I go for all of that. Always Daily30. Always add nuts on top. Is it bad that I don't vary that?

Federica: No, it's not bad at all. So I think it just depends on your life and what you can do and how you experience it. So if, for you, having something different would bring in stress 'cause you have to vary it, then it would be counterintuitive and counteractive to you just having a healthy breakfast. The breakfast you described ticks all the boxes. It's a fantastic breakfast, and if it works for you, great. Most people sort of want some variety 'cause they might find, like, "Actually, I don't want yogurt again today." But if it works for you and it's nutritionally balanced, then that's the most important 'cause consistency is king.

Jonathan: At the weekend, often I might do something different. Like, I like eggs. I might do eggs on rye bread. Yeah. I do rye bread 'cause one of the things I discovered is, like, my blood sugar control is really bad, so, like, sourdough, whatever, like, my blood sugar goes through the roof- Yeah ... whereas the, like, proper rye- Proper rye is so good like 100% rye, like, I have much less. And then my children would really like to do pancakes. Yeah. So we do whole wheat pancakes, and basically, it's eggs, it's milk, it's whole wheat flour, it's a bit of olive oil and a bit of salt. So it's more like a French crepe style, and the kids really think about it as a treat, but it's whole wheat flour. It actually scores pretty well, and then I put lots of fruit on it myself. The kids will cover it in maple syrup. Yeah. That is something that is delicious, and but clearly not something I'm gonna do during the week.

Federica: Yeah, fine. Whatever works for you and brings you the nutrition you need so you feel good for the rest of the day. Most of us have, say, three meals a day for seven days a week. That's 21 meals a day, week, right? And so what you want is variety across the 21 meals. If your breakfast works for you to be one meal every time, that's fine as long as you see variety throughout the rest of your day. And don't forget, most of us snack, so you also have an opportunity to bring more variety in your snacks. And then you get this lovely graph over the whole week, and you can see how many different foods you've eaten, and that's the way to think about it. So don't worry. If your breakfast is the same and you just vary the nuts and maybe the fruits, you're still getting variety.

Jonathan: And Federica, if somebody's listening to this and they don't have any time to prepare breakfast- Yeah you know, on the days that they're working, are there any, like, quick healthy options for them where they could still have breakfast?

Federica: I mentioned that there's... You can make a really healthy smoothie in a few seconds in a NutriBullet. Hemp seeds, frozen cherries, kefir, yogurt, and some chia. High in protein, high fiber, and it has that lovely combination of kefir and yogurt. You can add some cacao powder as well. Extra fiber, extra micronutrients, and tastes delicious with the cherries. The other thing you can really do is actually get some rye bread or some healthy whole grain, maybe it's sourdough, whatever your preferred bread. I do think rye is really good, and then put some nut butter and some berries on top. Make it into a fruit sandwich, I call it sometimes. Take it with you, or you can just have it open if you've got a couple minutes. So the only time needed there is to lightly toast your rye, spread some nut butter, a few berries on top, good to go. I think that's a really good light, easy, portable breakfast, too.

Jonathan: When you say nut butter, that means it could be peanut butter or almond butter

Federica: or whatever I want? Yeah. I've actually started experimenting with mixed nut butters, so now you can buy nut butters that are made with, like, cashew and almond and walnut so that you can get mixed nuts even better. Whatever you like in terms of, you know, change it up, see what you like. Just make sure you're adding a bit of fruit and then if you want to add some Daily30 or some mixed seeds as well, then you'll be increasing the nutrients there.

Jonathan: They all sound delicious. Maybe I'll move beyond my one breakfast- ... but we'll see. Let's move on to lunch. You've done your work, and I think lunch can be more challenging because you don't necessarily have all of the control or things start to go awry. Yes. So what does your lunch look like?

Federica: You know, lunch is one of those things that's so easy to not have lunch, because maybe a meeting gets put in or you actually need to finish that document, and I'm guilty of this. Making time to have lunch is such an important part of, A, having a break from work, and B, making sure you're nourishing yourself at lunch. It's another opportunity to get the foods that help you stay healthy. So, you know, maybe 20 minutes is all you need. You don't need to take a full hour, but 20 minutes to make a nutritious lunch and eat it away from your computer is really helpful also for helping to regulate stress. So take a break. And actually, I've become the queen of quick lunches because certainly I try to have lunch at home. I find it, if you're eating out, it is harder to find something healthy. So when I'm at home, I have a bowl, and I will literally put in some beans. I'll put in some whole grain, so whether it's barley or rye or spelt, put that in. It might be a slice of rye bread as well. And then I'm a big fan of tofu. Not everybody is. You can have a couple of boiled eggs. I also love tinned oily fish, so that might be sardines or mackerel. Put that in, and then some veggies, some chopped tomatoes. It might be some greens in your fridge or some leftover veggies from yesterday. You can warm that all up in the microwave in about a minute and a half, and you have a warm, satisfying lunch. In the summer months, it's more of a salad, but it's very similar concept, where you bring together food groups that are already ready to go. So it's assembly. It's an assembly lunch. I'm not cooking anything. I'm literally just taking things out from my cupboard that come together, sometimes it's frozen peas, and then you just warm it up, and you've got a really nutritious lunch ready to go in minutes that you can eat.

Jonathan: And so you mentioned both beans and whole grains. Yeah. Does that mean you've already cooked them earlier?

Federica: Yeah, so you can buy beans in jars or tinned, and they're already cooked. You don't need to cook those. Similarly, with whole grains, so sometimes, it's actually my lovely mom, she likes to batch cook barley, and she'll just bring me some, or I buy the ready-cooked spelt sachets and use those. So there's actually ways where you can buy foods that are really easy to assemble, so you reduce the cooking time.

Jonathan: And is that healthy? 'Cause I think I always sort of grew up a little bit this sense that like well, if it's like pre-cooked- Yeah ... or if, like a lot of those like sachets are in like- Yeah a sort of plastic-

Federica: They are in a plastic, yeah ...

Jonathan: pack. Like the, what you're describing. Yeah. Like, there's quite a few now of these, like quinoa or spelt.

Federica: Yes.

Jonathan: Like, is that actually healthy?

Federica: Yeah, well, so I would opt for the unflavored ones, so the ones that are literally just parb- they're just parboiled or boiled. So they're just cooked quinoa or cooked spelt, or sometimes they're cooked mixed grains. I don't like the flavored ones, I have to say. So I would just do that, and they are absolutely healthy. Don't microwave them in the plastic. Put them into a bowl. 'Cause if you heat up food in plastic, you do get some of that plastic migrating into the food and, more importantly, the plasticizers not migrate into your food. So that's the only caveat is t- try to take them out of the plastic to heat them up. There's a quinoa one which is like black, red, and white quinoa. It feels so fancy. I buy that as well. And it just means you can make a healthy, nutritious lunch in minutes. You can maybe add some harissa paste, extra virgin olive oil, squeeze of lemon, done, and it tastes amazing.

Jonathan: Can you talk me through why, like, that's the combination that when you're at home- Yeah ... you're putting together? So help me to understand, 'cause you're obviously a nutrition scientist. You're thinking about this.

Federica: Yes. Well, so what I'm trying to do is make sure that I'm getting a variety of plant foods that deliver a variety of fibers, which are really important for our gut microbiome. They're important for satiety, so help me feel full, and they're also important to help regulate the movement of my food through my bowel, right? So that's where the beans or lentils, the whole grains, a sprinkling of nuts and seeds in there, using herbs and spices, that all contributes. The whole grains specifically and legumes are two food groups that are incredibly important for good health. They are two food groups that are found in all the healthiest diets. When we look at any sort of centenarian research, they eat whole grains, they eat legumes. So including them in your diet is a really good way to help improve your health.

Jonathan: Legumes is the beans?

Federica: Is the beans or the lentils, chickpeas, green peas. Green beans are also legume. People think it's a vegetable, it's actually legume. So eating a variety of those is really great, and there's some brands that are now making them delicious and easy, and you can buy the jars, and they look pretty, and it's ... They taste great. So get those in. If you buy kale or cavolo nero or broccoli, you can very quickly flash boil them. So you can either literally boil the kettle and just pour the boiling water over kale, for example, in a colander, and then you've steamed it, basically. There's lots of easy ways that you can make that a quick lunch, part of your lunch or leftovers from dinner very often. And then you have, like, the flavor bombs, the tomatoes. You want to have maybe some, like, chopped red onion, the things that just bring extra zing to your plate. Lemon. The other thing to think about is adding some ferment. So I very often add sauerkraut to my dishes at the end. Don't put those in the microwave if you can help it. But put that ... Adds texture, color, flavor and fermented foods. So-

Jonathan: Why not in the microwave?

Federica: Well, when you microwave ferment, it kills off the live microbes. Still beneficial, so a lot of the data we see actually shows that even when live microbes are pasteurized or killed, you still see a benefit. But if you've got them live, keep them live.

Jonathan: Probably the biggest single thing now I think that has changed is that I try and eat a lot of beans, and that is because I've been convinced they're incredibly good for me in terms of they have all of this protein in it and this incredibly high amount of fiber that is feeding my gut microbes. But I think the other thing that's really interesting is basically you can swap them for what you might have had rice or pasta and suddenly, like, you know, the score of the meal shoots up. But interestingly, the thing I really notice is You have this wonderful sense of being full at the end of the meal, which I don't think is a way that I was used to ever really feeling after eating, honestly, in the way that I ate growing up. And it's not just at the end of the meal. I'm still full two hours later.

Federica: Yeah.

Jonathan: Does any of that surprise you?

Federica: No.

Jonathan: Yeah.

Federica: So let's touch on a few things. So yeah, they are a fantastic source of plant protein and fiber and other nutrients as well. Some of- chickpeas, for example, are a very good source of iron. You need to combine them with vitamin C-containing foods, whether that's a squeeze of lemon or some tomatoes or peppers. So they're very nutrient-dense. When you combine these legumes with whole grains, you actually get the perfect amino acid profile in terms of protein. See, because legumes have slightly different essential amino acid levels compared to whole grains, when you put them together, they get this, like, beautiful, like, even distribution. Very good.

Jonathan: So if you put both, it's like- Yeah ... if you have beans and a whole grain, then it sort of gives you, like, all the amino acids- The, like, the, like,

Federica: perfect plant protein, yeah ...

Jonathan: in the right combination.

Federica: Yeah, it's really good for that. And now beans themselves, especially, you know, they are very fiber-rich, and they have this... It's quite dense. When you eat them, they're sort of, the texture is quite filling. And what happens is as you eat them, they have this volume about them, especially if you're eating, like, butter beans, chickpeas. They actually fill your stomach. That helps to that feeling of fullness. But later, after you've eaten, like half hour, an hour, two hours later, as they make their way through your gastrointestinal system, they're triggering more satiety responses because they're nutrient-dense. And then because they have so much fiber, your gut microbes break that fiber down, release short-chain fatty acids, which then trigger the release of GLP-1, GIP, PYY in the gut later in the colon. So two, three hours after you've eaten these beans, you have these little messages saying, "Hey, we still have great food here." So beans are a fantastic way to feel satiated. And in countries that eat a lot of beans, so Italy, Japan, you know, Spain, when we eat, right, we say, "Buon appetito" to start, which is, like, healthy appetite or good appetite. And then at the end, we say “Sono sazio”. I'm satiated. I think a lot of the time, you know, the standard American diet has completely lost the sense of satiety because we don't eat the foods that actually result in that long-term satiety, that long-term feeling of not hunger. We're used to feeling full temporarily in our stomachs, but you need foods like beans to be satiated.

Jonathan: Now, what you've described is, like, great, you're at home- Yes ... and you've got time to make something.

Federica: Yeah.

Jonathan: But lots of us are not at home at lunchtime, right? We're out and about, maybe we're at work or wherever. And this happens to you as well, right? Yes. So what do you do then, Federica?

Federica: So if you know where you're going and you're gonna be there for a while, so for example, if I'm coming into the office, I'll bring packed lunch, and I will just have it and I'm excited about that. Great. If you rushed out the door like I have this morning and didn't have time to pack anything, then it's about finding solutions that can help to combine some of these food groups. So you can still go out and see, can I buy like a nice bean-based soup? And then can I add a piece of fresh fruit to that? So there's ways that you can combine foods, even from the supermarket. I would sort of walk past the meal deal, 'cause honestly, that's not a good solution most of the time. For example, if you go to the supermarket, you might be able to buy some rye bread, buy some hummus, for example. Spread that on top. Perhaps you buy some feta or maybe you get some sardines, put those. So you have to sort of get a little bit creative, or you can go to outlets that specifically let you build a bowl of healthier foods, and there's a few of them. Certainly here in London you can get more choice, more access. If that's not possible, then I would actually recommend eating a piece of whole fruit, some mixed nuts, and then waiting till you get home. Or buying like a plain yogurt, putting some nuts in there and some fruit, and waiting until you get, can have a healthier meal. Because otherwise you might buy something that won't actually feel, make you feel satiated and may just impact your energy levels later.

Jonathan: I think a lot of people listening are gonna be thinking, "Well, why don't you just get a ready-made sandwich?"

Federica: Yeah, well, you know, a ready-made sandwich isn't gonna make me feel great, and some sandwiches are better than others. You can buy a sandwich perhaps that has, as I said, you can get, like, a hummus and roasted veggie sandwich, maybe on a brown bread. I wouldn't not buy that, but a lot of sandwich options can be completely devoid of fiber, and so they won't help you feel energized and satiated an hour later. So for me, it's, like, a waste of money. I'd rather buy something that's gonna help make me feel satiated until I can get somewhere that has good food.

Jonathan: And so what is it about the standard ready-made sandwich or- Yeah ... you know, I think in the States often maybe it's not ready-made, but you get somebody to make this for you, that you're like- Yeah ... "Well, I'm not going there."

Federica: So often these sort of sandwiches are made with highly refined flours, so it's like a white bread sandwich, and then perhaps there'll be some mayonnaise, perhaps some cured meat or luncheon meat, and then there might be a pickle or a salad leaf, but not much in the way of plants. And that will deliver some fats, but they're not really the type of healthy fats you're looking for, and it will deliver some protein, but not really enough to help you feel satiated, and also actually processed meat is not where we want to be getting our protein from, and not enough fiber to help with satiety or to help your gut microbiome or to regulate the absorption of that very white bread sandwich. So you're more likely to have, like, a more elevated and persistent increase in your blood glucose level that then might, in about 30% of people, result in a crash that makes you feel really hungry, really tired, about, say, an hour and a half later. Now, listen, sometimes that is the only option. I've been in situations where the only option is, like, a tuna sandwich from the petrol station. Fine. You buy the tuna sandwich from the petrol station, you find some mixed nuts, and you add an apple. You can make it work. I'm just saying, if you have a choice or an option, you're best off sort of having a healthy snack and then wait until you can have a proper meal. I realize I'm really lucky in that, because not everybody has that level of choice. But it's also, because I've been doing this for a while, I know how crap I feel when I don't do it. And so I think oftentimes is when you make this change in your diet, you're like, "Oh, I don't really... I don't wanna break that because I know I'll feel rubbish afterwards." So it's very much something that I'm lucky to have a choice to do, and I've found out ways to work around it if I need to. And healthy snacking is a really nice stopgap if, for whatever reason, you can't get the kind of lunch you want.

Jonathan: What about at the weekend? What would your weekend lunch look like?

Federica: Yeah. So weekends are also have got the kids. I love to get them involved in cooking, and they love to get involved. And that really depends, again, on, like, the season and what we're doing. But for example, they love spaghetti vongole in the summer. They're obsessed with it. They have a vongole song. And so we might make a seafood pasta. If my in-laws are coming over, I'll make, like, a traditional roast chicken for them with, like, all the trimmings, all the, like, vegetables. Just way more vegetables than you'd expect, and my potatoes are roasted in olive oil. We like to have family meals on the weekends. I'm from Rome, Jonathan. Pasta with beans is, like, our everyday food. So, like, a really delicious slow-cooked pasta with borlotti beans. They love it, too. Yeah, so it just totally depends on the weather and what we're doing and what they feel like. They do get to dictate a little bit. We're like, "Hey, at least one meal," it's like, "what do you guys wanna eat?"

Jonathan: You mentioned pasta. One of my big swaps has been to move to wholewheat pasta- ... instead of, like, the white pasta that I grew up with as a kid. And I've actually grown to, like, just genuinely really like it, so it's one of these things that I'm not feeling that I'm missing the white pasta. In fact, to be honest, I now prefer the wholewheat flavor. Okay. Yeah. Because I guess I just got used to it. And it's also, interestingly, the kids never mind about it. So I found with lots of things, it's a real struggle to get them to eat. Interestingly, they've always-- they think wholewheat pasta is delicious. They always had, so I've never found that difficult. I'm looking at you as, you know, as an Italian.

Federica: Yeah, yeah.

Jonathan: What sort of pasta do you eat?

Federica: There's actually quite a big difference in pastas, okay? So if you buy, like, a quick-cook pasta, it's a very different nutritional profile to, like, a slow, air-dried durum wheat pasta. The protein content is different. The micronutrient content is different. The texture is different, so how slowly you chew. It's a very different food, Jonathan. It's not the same. I buy the very good Italian pasta.

Jonathan: Which is therefore still white,

Federica: not- Still white ... in fact, whole wheat. I do buy whole wheat, but the point of pasta is it can be an extremely healthy vehicle for all the things you have with it. And actually, if you buy a really good quality high protein, so the durum wheat, the slow-dried pasta, and you cook it al dente, so don't overcook it, it can be a healthy food. Like, it's a low glycemic index. It has a higher protein content, higher iron content. It's a good food, but you have to have it with the right sauce.

Jonathan: What about after lunch? And, you know, I'm a big snacker. There is no way I can go from lunch to dinner without snacking. Are you a snacker?

Federica: I do snack. I love fruit, and I love to have dates with a piece of dark chocolate. I love our bar. I like the dark chocolate bar in the afternoon, but in the morning I like the raspberry and goji berry one. I don't know why. So in terms of snacking, usually it's if I'm actually hungry or if I'm going to work out or if something's happening, but I don't find snack foods attractive. Again, very lucky that I don't... Like, I don't really fancy biscuits. I don't really reach for that sort of thing.

Jonathan: And you don't have the sort of energy crash in the afternoon?

Federica: No, typically I don't. I don't tend to reach for foods in the afternoon, and I don't tend to have that desire for a sweet food in the afternoon. But in the past, when I used to have less healthy diets, I would definitely get that afternoon desire for like a little something sweet. And honestly, that for me personally, that's entirely gone ever since my breakfast has become so nutritious. So actually it's not even lunch. It's breakfast has the biggest impact on how hungry I feel around 3:00 or 4:00 PM.

Jonathan: If I eat anything, which is like, it's normally all these highly refined starches, you know, like bread or even your durum wheat white pasta or, you know, lovely pain au chocolat or whatever these things are. I really feel that over the next couple of hours and I feel this energy crash. And then, and also interestingly, I'm really hungry even though I ate this stuff just a couple of hours- Yeah before. And it sounds like, A, you are quite disciplined about what you eat, but B, that actually doesn't bother you as much as for some people.

Federica: No, I think it's not even discipline. I love eating the food I eat, so I get a lot of joy of eating the way I do. And I think I have a high fiber diet, so I just avoid the sort of peaks and troughs mostly thanks to the fiber I eat, honestly. So the days when I'm not able to eat that way, I do feel it, the difference. For me, it exhibits more as headaches. So interestingly, I think I'm just ve- I'm lucky that my hunger signaling isn't that loud, but I get headaches instead. And so sometimes I'll know that I haven't eaten well and I'll get to around that time and be like, "Gosh, I'm getting a headache." And it's because I haven't eaten enough food. So, you know, we're all so different in how we react. And for me it's less about discipline. 'Cause I'm actually, as I said, I have different food every day. I don't plan it. I'm in awe of people who batch cook for the week and have it all ready to go. Can you imagine how amazing that would be to be like, "I know exactly what I'm eating." Like, I'm not that disciplined in that way. But what I do know is that if I don't feel like myself, and if I don't eat the right foods, then I will suffer with it, but just in my own way, which is headaches and just not feeling 100%.

Jonathan: And Federica, if you were advising me as someone who is a regular snacker, and I think there's a lot of- Yeah listeners who are the same-

Federica: Yeah ...

Jonathan: if you were preparing my snack, what would it be?

Federica: I have to say I eat dinner early. That's probably why I can get away with it. I eat with the kids. If I was preparing your snack, I would first of all, do you want savory or sweet? So if you want something savory, a combination like definitely hummus and veggie sticks and cubes of cheese, like cheddar. If you're someone who loves savory, that is gonna just taste delicious, right? Olives, yes, add some olives in. Brilliant. If you're more of a sweet snacker, then definitely, like, bring in fresh fruit. Fresh whole fruit is so good for us. Two to three portions a day is ideal for reducing heart disease risk. Fresh whole fruit, perhaps you're gonna add some yogurt there, or maybe a handful of nuts, some dark chocolate, 70% or above. If you're a sweet snacker, that's gonna see you through that little snack. You can make healthy snacks at home as well. So if you're someone who loves baking, for example, you can make really delicious dark chocolate and nut-based biscuits, and then take them with you. If you're out and about and you're looking for a healthy snack, that gets a bit harder. It's why we created that Gut Health bar. But you can opt for things like seaweed crisps. I actually love them. My kids love them, too. And you can get hummus pots now that you can buy. Cream cheese on, like, a rye bread or, you know, the... You can get really nice whole grain bagels. A cream cheese and smoked salmon bagel is an elite snack. So actually my kids sometimes have that after school.

Jonathan: So dinner is early at 6:00. What does it look like?

Federica: So I'll eat whatever the kids are eating. So that might look like salmon with some broccoli, some other greens, and perhaps they might have... They don't love whole grains as much as I do yet, I'm working on it. But it could be some sweet potato, or it might be some roasted potatoes that they're having. Then sometimes it's soup, so we're going into soup season now. So they really love minestrone soups. They love ribollita. They also love pumpkin soup, so we have some of that. I don't eat meat, so if they're having meat, I'll make myself some tofu or have some beans. If I've had a very long day and haven't had enough to eat, I also love making pasta e fagioli, so that is my comfort food. It's borlotti beans, soffritto, tomatoes, lots of Parmesan, olive oil, and some pasta. It's very nice.

Jonathan: And you just mentioned that you don't eat meat.

Federica: No.

Jonathan: Is that a health decision? Yeah.

Federica: Yeah, yeah, so for me it is. So my father passed away from colorectal cancer, and so for me, reducing red meat and processed meat was a really obvious choice.

Jonathan: Could you explain why?

Federica: Yeah, so we know that red meat and processed meat consumption increases your risk of colorectal cancer. And so I'm doing everything I can to reduce my risk, and that includes removing those from my diet. It doesn't mean that my children never eat them. Once a week, they'll have some form of red meat, whether it's lamb or beef, and I try to buy it as responsibly as possible. Because I cut out those meats, I don't enjoy eating meat anymore. It's a funny change in taste preference. I don't really eat chicken or anything either. But I do eat oily fish, so we do have fish at home. If they're eating any kind of meat, I'll swap in either some oily fish or some tofu, which I will make for myself.

Jonathan: And when you said fish, you immediately said oily fish. Yes.

Federica: Yes. So the oily fish, best way to remember is SMASH, which is the acronym that's used. Salmon, mackerel, anchovies, sardines, and herring. I don't know who still buys herring. It is delicious, but it's quite hard to find. So it's worth mentioning also sprats and trout are considered oily fish. That means that they have high levels of omega-3 fatty acids, which are an essential fatty acid. Very good for our health, for brain health, vascular health. Our gut microbes love omega-3 fatty acids as well, and you don't need more than three portions a week to get enough.

Jonathan: And that's an important part. You were describing when you think about- Yes ... your, like, your routine now in the week. You are actively thinking, "Have I hit my three of this?" Yeah,

Federica: and especially, and the kids too. So obviously with children are growing, children's needs for omega-3 fatty acids is really high as their brains continue to form. So have we all had our dose of oily fish?

Jonathan: I think for a lot of people, salmon has become quite a, like, a well-known fish, and it sort of replaces, like, a chicken or something like that, right? Yes. Yeah. So it's sort of quite straightforward how to do it. But what about these other oily fishes, which I think for me and for lots of other people, it's, like, much less obvious really how you would fit them into, like, just your normal eating patterns. Yeah. So for you, how do you consume the rest of these?

Federica: So trout is very similar to salmon. Cook it, treat it the same way, just a bit less cooking time. It's less fat, so it goes dry if you overcook it. The girls have seen me eat sardines out of, like, a jar or a tin so much that they got curious and tried it and quite like it. So with sardines, you can just serve it with vegetables. You don't have to do anything. You can buy them tinned or jarred, and they're perfectly good to go. If you're on holiday or if you have access to fresh sardines, fantastic news, you can cook them in the oven. You can grill them. They taste great. Mackerel's another one that's interesting. A lot of people don't like cooking mackerel because it's quite fishy smelling when you cook it. But if you buy it in, again, in a tin or a jar, it doesn't smell of fish at all. So a lot of people are put off cooking oily fish because of the smell. Give it a go. Lots of herbs and marinading can help with that, and also the mode of cooking. But if you're not sure about it, buy them tinned or jarred. They're just as healthy for you, and then you can add them to pasta dishes. You can just add them to things that you already love. So for example, if you enjoy, like, a pesto pasta with broccoli, you can just add in some sardines, and it just adds to the dish. If you don't like the idea of mixing it up, you can start by making, like, a rye bread tartlet, as I said earlier, with, like, some hummus, some rocket, and put a couple of sardines on top and see how you like that. Anchovies are incredibly versatile. They make everything taste umami and salty, and my ideal pairing is garlic with anchovies. You melt that in a pan with olive oil, and then you add broccoli and some beans, and you can use that as a sauce for pasta, and you won't taste the anchovies. It won't taste fishy. It'll just taste umami.

Jonathan: So it's interesting that you're, like, just sort of almost just adding this into a dish- Different ingredient ... that you would've cooked anyway. Just throw it in on top, and you're saying it doesn't completely, like, wreck the recipe as you would've had it before. Actually in a bit sort of like-

Federica: Just a bit of flavor, a

Jonathan: bit of- You're, like, secretly improving your kids' diets without them even noticing.

Federica: Yes. Anchovies are a very easy one to insert. The hardest is herring. I mean, you either like herring or you don't, but that's just one of them. So there's lots of ways you can introduce these into dishes, and it won't be a big deal. So if you like pasta with tuna, that's great. Why don't you try that as pasta with mackerel, tinned mackerel instead of tinned tuna?

Jonathan: Tuna is not as healthy

Federica: for you? It's not an oily fish. So tinned tuna, tuna is not an oily fish, and it's actually one of the fish that has the highest amounts of mercury. So you can eat it, but I wouldn't recommend eating it more than two times a week, really, and if you're pregnant, even less than that.

Jonathan: As we're describing all that, I'm s- one of the things that comes to mind is what you cook your food in- ... because it's one of those questions that- Yeah ... we get all the time, and I have had, you know, people, like, question my own choices at home. So what do you cook with?

Federica: I mean, I cook with extra virgin olive oils. I cook with it. I dress with it. I love it. However, you know, for example, with tofu, sometimes I'm like, "I want a different flavor profile," so I'll use, like, a white sesame oil. But I just find extra virgin olive oil works for us. I think that a cold pressed or a rapeseed oil is also a good option if you want less of a flavor profile. So some people find the flavor of extra virgin olive oil quite strong. The price is also going up, so for some people it's just not an affordable way to cook, and in that case, you can use olive oil or a rapeseed oil, or any kind of other seed oil will do the trick in healthy cooking. It's healthier than butter.

Jonathan: Are there any health benefits to using extra virgin olive oil over other cooking oils?

Federica: Yeah. So extra virgin olive oil has this amazing amount of polyphenols, these bioactive plant chemicals that are protective, and eating extra virgin olive oil is one of the best ways to get them. So if you cook with extra virgin olive oil, even at quite high temperatures, you will get some oxidation from the cooking, but the high levels of polyphenols mean that it counteracts any oxidation damage. So it's a really good way to get these, like things like oleic acid, which are really good for your heart, your blood vessels, your brain. It also contains vitamins and minerals in itself. The thing that it has less of is alpha linoleic acid, which for example other seed oils do have more of, but there's other sources to get those fats from. So I prefer extra virgin olive oil because of its complete nutritional picture. It's also when we look at research, nutrition research, extra virgin olive oil plays a specific role in improving health when we look at the Mediterranean diet. It's a key element of the Mediterranean diet, so it actually confers additional benefits to the overall dietary pattern.

Jonathan: I've had a bunch of people tell me that cooking with extra virgin olive oil is downright dangerous because of something to do with its smoke point and that this is actually unhealthy. And other people tell me, well, it's a complete waste because like you're just like burning it so it doesn't do anything.

Federica: Yeah, yeah. So the smoke point is higher than people think. It's about 220 degrees Celsius, which most of us don't cook at that temperature. You might get up to 190, 200, but 220's pretty high. Even if you're reaching 220 where it starts to smoke, so the ox- it's starting to get oxidized, it's getting like damaged and it will have some oxidated parts, but because the polyphenol count is so high, so just to give you some context, right? An extra virgin olive oil can have anything between 200 milligrams and like 1,000 milligrams of polyphenols per liter. And then you compare that to like a really expensive cold pressed walnut oil which is high in polyphenols, it's got like maybe 60 milligrams.

Jonathan: So- So it's like 60 versus like-

Federica: Like 600 ... 200 to

Jonathan: 1,000.

Federica: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So it's a huge difference. Now those polyphenolic components themselves reduce oxidative stress. So even if you're having extra virgin olive oil that has been heated so it's oxidized and it's got to its smoke point, it's going to be counteracted by the antioxidant effects of the high polyphenol count. So it's one of these myths where it's like, "Oh, you can only keep it cold." Actually, no, that's more relevant for the oils that have a lower smoke point, like some of the seed oils. You don't really wanna use those to too much heat 'cause there's no polyphenols to counteract the oxidation effect. Extra virgin olive oil is the healthiest oil to cook with, to dress with, to bake with.

Jonathan: This is another area where I've completely changed what I do, 'cause originally I would not have used extra virgin olive oil for anything other than, like, putting on- Yeah a salad. Yeah. Our colleague, Professor Sarah Berry, actually explained to me that if I fried my eggs in extra virgin olive oil- Yes ... I was actually making them healthier- Yes ... than if I poached them. Because the extra virgin olive oil is so healthy, it's like that's actually lifting the whole meal, and I think maybe one of my biggest surprises is how rapidly you can change your view about what tastes good. I mean, let's be honest, butter still tastes great. So I'm not saying that butter doesn't taste- but, you know, I use very little butter now because I've learnt that that's really not very good for you and the olive oil is great.

Federica: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that change in flavor preference is something that we think is at least in part mediated by a change in gut microbes.

Jonathan: Is that right?

Federica: Yeah, so if you imagine your gut microbes are just trying to survive, you're just a vessel for them, right? Yeah. And so part of the way they try to survive is to send specific signals through the vagus nerve to encourage you to eat the foods that are going to keep them alive. So often people who start to eat broccoli or chickpeas and they're, "Oh, I never used to like them, but now I look for them," and it's so weird. It's like, well, we think that at least in part this is mediated by the microbes that are now thriving in your gut being like, "Send us more food." And I just think that's so funny when you think we're just being steered by these tiny microbes. Pavlov was correct, not just about dogs, but also humans. We learn to associate how we feel after certain behaviors. And so when you start to eat differently and you feel better, it reinforces that loop of repeating that behavior so you feel good.

Jonathan: That's fascinating. So you've eaten your dinner quite early- Yes ... with the kids. Yeah. Is that the last time you eat, or do you eat more later in the evening as well?

Federica: This is where dark chocolate plays a role in my life. I love dark chocolate, so I'll have some dark chocolate. I might have made my, like, date dark chocolate and peanut butter bar, which is so good. And after we've had that together, I don't tend to eat anything after that at all. I might have a herbal tea or a s- I'll definitely drink some water, but because I also go to bed quite early, right? So remember, I get up at 6:00, so I'm definitely in bed by 10:00.

Jonathan: And so you'll have finished eating by- Yeah ... about what time?

Federica: By, like, between 6:00 and 7:00.

Jonathan: 6:00 and 7:00. Yeah. And then the next morning when you have breakfast, how late will that be?

Federica: Around 8:00, 8:30.

Jonathan: So you're doing, like, 13 to 14 hours of fasting each night, and mainly that comes from-

Federica: Life

Jonathan: eating early. No, but eating early- Yes, yes ... and not then snacking later into the evening.

Federica: Yes, definitely. And I think the evidence now shows us that actually eating earlier in the day, so stacking your eating hours earlier and finishing earlier, tends to be beneficial for most people. Not for everybody. Some people absolutely hate having breakfast, and they much prefer having a later dinner, especially Tim Spector. So it's not for everybody, but for the majority in the data, we see that shifting our eating window earlier is beneficial for your metabolic health. In my stage of life right now with young kids, it also just makes sense. So it does need to make sense in your social context. We've spoken briefly about the importance of social connection. If your family and your friends and everybody you love likes to eat dinner at 8:00 PM, removing yourself from that is not going to be good for you. So think about what works, but certainly we do see that trying to not eat late at night and certainly not eating too close to your bedtime is beneficial for your sleep quality and metabolic health. You don't have to have 13 or 14 hours overnight fast. I mean, my eating window changes throughout the year. So as we get to summer holidays, for example, if we go on holiday, then I find that actually we all eat a bit later and go to bed a bit later. So don't forget that these things have a bit of movement in them throughout the year. Seasonal changes, it's not a problem. But just if, when you look at your entire year, you'd see that there is a consistent pattern with just a bit of leeway because life happens and things change. And when it's, like, summertime and it's daylight until 11:00 PM, none of our kids are going to bed before 9:00. It's impossible to do it. So things shift around, and that's absolutely fine.

Jonathan: I love that. Let's come to the final part of the day, which is really, like, the run-up to bedtime. Yes. You know, a lot of influencers have a 15-point plan that, you know, starts three hours before they go to bed. Have you got one of those?

Federica: No. No, definitely not. You've had your dinner, catch up, then there's homework, right? So I think it is quite nice to have some time before bed, maybe an hour before bed, where it's quite calm. So that's when screens would go off, like, no TV, no movies, just doing some homework, reading, maybe having a nice warm bath, and getting ready for bed. The only things I will say for sleep hygiene are those, is keeping screens out of bedrooms, like, really strict about that. Try to avoid television before, like an hour before bedtime if possible. Sometimes that doesn't happen, but that's okay. And then try to observe, like, a nice routine where your bedroom is nice and cool, and it's dark, and it's calm. I think those things, like... Then, of course, you get the typical, like, rough and tumble just before bedtime where everyone's running around screaming their heads off. Cool. But I think it's important to observe sleep hygiene for ourselves and for our kids 'cause it really impacts how they can learn and how they then pick up behaviors for themselves as adults. And so I think one that I've really become very keen on, especially in the past, say, 18 months or so, is like absolutely no telephones, no screens upstairs at all in the bedrooms. It makes a big difference.

Jonathan: That's really interesting, and I have got ever more serious about the screens. I think, you know, the more you read about it and the impact and realizing how much I'm addicted to this, and I never meant to be and you just wake up I think it's fascinating hearing you describe your routine, and it is very different from what we tend to hear from people describing their very fancy routine online. So I'd love to finish with a final question. Is there anything that a lot of wellness influencers swear by online that you actively don't do?

Federica: I think a lot of these influencers really never talk about the importance of social connection and spending time with the people you love, right? They never have that. You never see them be like, "Part of my biohacking is to spend time with my best friend." And so for me, anything they're doing which takes them away from having real social connection is just a no. The big levers, as we've said, are nutrition. Eat mostly whole plants. Be regular with what you do. Sleep. Movement throughout your day, so walking. Doesn't have to be a super expensive gym class, you know? Social connection. Avoid risky substances. Don't smoke. Don't drink. Don't take illegal drugs. Don't take substances that haven't been tested in humans because someone tells you they might help you be more like Wolverine. And really focus on what you're doing to help mitigate stress. We have quite a stressful life in countries like the UK and the US, so actually building time in for rest, building time in for a lunch break to pause is really important. So I'd encourage people to do that over trying to fit in, like, one more biohacky thing into their day that's gonna add to the stress.

Jonathan: I love how grounded that is, Federica. And I'm not gonna do, like, the normal type of summary because I think it's, like, almost trying to walk you through your whole day doesn't seem to make any sense. But the thing that I'm really taking away from this is you have all of this amazing knowledge really about how the things that we can do in our life can affect our health, and you apply that a lot, in fact, to how you're living. So it's not like your work and your personal life are completely separate. You are really applying a lot of this, but in a surprisingly non-rigid fashion. And I was really struck by you said, like, there are these six pillars that are responsible for, like, 80% of your disease risk. So actually if you can fix those six, like, it's transformational for your health. And what's striking about them is they're not, like, weird red light things. I am gonna list those 'cause that's just right. It's like what you eat How you sleep, whether you're moving, social connections, which you emphasize a lot today, right? Yes. Which is where you talk a lot about being with your friends and your family, like avoiding risky drugs and how you deal with stress. And then as you're describing your day, I think the thing that I'm most struck by is, of course, food is central. Not surprising knowing you. Yeah, I love my food. And you talk about it with such joy and love that you combine, in a sense, the sleep and your family and the sort of the social connections and the avoiding stress all sort of bit wrapped up with trying to say, "Well, I've got younger kids, so actually I'm gonna go to bed early, and then I can be able to wake up earlier so I'm not exhausted and I'm gonna be able to be with them." So you've sort of designed your life to fit together. That is really striking. And I think the other thing that for me I was struck by is there are certain foods quite specifically that are obviously really important to you.

Federica: Yeah.

Jonathan: So I could see that for you it's like beans and whole grains, like you need to find a way that you're putting them together in the same meal, like a lot across your diet. And similarly, when you were talking about the oily fish, then again you're thinking like, "That's really important. I need to get three of those. They're not all gonna be the same fish even. And it's important for me, it's important for my children." Whereas elsewhere actually you're relatively relaxed, like you know what's good. You're trying to put this together. You know that you want to eat at least 30 plants. You want to make sure you're getting all of the fiber from this, all the rest of it. But actually it's the opposite of rigid. It's actually all quite- Fluid ... fluid. Yeah. And I guess part of that is that you have a lot of confidence in what you're doing. So because you know really, really everything about what's gonna be healthy, it's quite easy to find your way through this.

Federica: That, and also I've been lucky to learn how to cook. So I'm no chef, but being able to cook for yourself is an absolutely essential life skill if you want to be able to look after yourself. I'm lucky I learnt it from my family, but I do encourage people, if you haven't been lucky to have that, learn how to, like go to a course, learn how to cook. There's lots of videos online, YouTube videos. Once you start to learn how to combine foods and make it delicious for you, eating healthier becomes easier and more enjoyable, so it's really worth doing.

Jonathan: And cheaper.

Federica: And a lot cheaper. Yes, exactly.