Top 7 foods to fight inflammation this spring with Prof. Tim Spector and Dr. Federica Amati

Spring is the perfect time to shake up your routine. In this episode, Prof. Tim Spector and Dr. Federica Amati reveal seven delicious, science-backed foods that help cool the flame of chronic inflammation.

Whether you're dealing with bloating, aching joints, or low energy, this episode is packed with easy, gut-friendly tips to help you feel your best this season.

Finally, they offer a roadmap for long-term change. Tim and Fede each share one small but powerful shift to reduce inflammation over four timelines — what you can do today, this week, this month, and throughout the year — to create habits that truly stick.

Transcript

Jonathan Wolf: Tim, thank you for joining me today. 

Tim Spector: It's great to be here. 

Jonathan Wolf: And Fede, thanks for being here. 

Federica Amati: Lovely to be here. 

Jonathan Wolf: Alright. You know the drill. We always start with a rapid-fire Q and A with questions from our listeners. Are you ready to go? 

Starting with Tim, are you worried about rising levels of inflammation?

Tim Spector: Yes, everyone should be.

Jonathan Wolf: If your inflammation is high, are you stuck with this? 

Tim Spector: No, absolutely not.

Jonathan Wolf: Will a juice cleanse heal your inflammation? 

Tim Spector: Highly unlikely  

Jonathan Wolf: Fede, could the right foods be comparable to ibuprofen when it comes to lowering inflammation? 

Federica Amati: Yes. 

Jonathan Wolf: Can you fight inflammation with dessert? 

Federica Amati: Yes. 

Jonathan Wolf: Can your gut bugs help fight inflammation?

Federica Amati: Absolutely. 

Jonathan Wolf: And finally, Tim, what's the most common misconception about inflammation? 

Tim Spector: That you have to feel ill to have raised inflammation, and people don't realize how it can be silent and even more deadly. 

Jonathan Wolf: I feel like that's a great introduction to what we really want to talk about today, which is what is inflammation? Why does it matter? 

And that right now, spring is the perfect time to make a change. So I couldn't be more excited that you're here to talk about seven foods that fight inflammation backed by the latest science, foods that anyone can add to their plate. 

But before we get into that, what is inflammation, and is it always problematic?

Tim Spector: So our view of inflammation has actually changed in recent years. So we used to know it as our defense mechanism against damage or infection, where the body would stimulate a response of the immune system, which meant it could fight off some nasty, invasive bug. It could start to heal a wound or anything going wrong in the body.

So we've all got this natural defense mechanism, and this is why when you have a virus, you get an inflammatory response to your whole body, and that actually helps get rid of the virus quicker but makes you sick in the process. 

So often, it's not the actual infection causing the symptoms; it's the inflammation itself. It's the immune system saying, Right, we are going to get more white cells in there to take away the debris. We are going to loosen up the blood vessels so they're leaky and all kinds of stuff get out there. Things swell up, they go red, they're painful. 

All this is for a reason. And when people think of inflammation, they think of some with arthritis and a big swollen red joint. And as you know, I was a rheumatologist for over 20 years, treating those kinds of people, and that's what I thought of as inflammation. 

But we now know that the whole thing is much more subtle. So these things still happen in everybody, and we wouldn't be alive if we didn't have those mechanisms. But what appears to be happening now is that if you think of inflammation as a big fire that gets burnt to sort of kill off all the bugs you don't want, now, instead of that fire being turned off, it's still being left on a little bit.

So, the immune system is still simmering away. It is still engaging. And we have all these immune cells in our body, they're sending out chemicals all over the body saying, you know, there's danger, there's a problem. 

So what's happening now in the modern world is many of us have low-level inflammation where the immune system is just in a sort of slightly on mode all the time. So we can't relax, and you're using up valuable metabolic energy. 

You are distracting your body because it thinks it's looking around for something to attack. The immune system says, Where can I go? What's going on here? This has a number of consequences. 

So the fact that we have this low-level information means that our blood vessels are slightly swollen, our gut is slightly leaky, white cells are just primed to do things all the time, and it fatigues the body. It doesn't have chance to repair. 

It could affect your heart, so your blood vessels and your heart are just not working perfectly and therefore increase your risk of heart disease. It can stress your metabolism, so you're more likely to get high insulin levels and diabetes.

It also actually can influence your brain and your mental health so that your body perceives you are under some threat and is more likely to cause depression. So your mood will go down as if you are ill. We've all been ill or had a vaccination, and the vaccination itself causes a short burst of inflammation that makes us tired, want to go to bed, and not talk to people. So that's one of the current theories of depression. 

Then you've also got this risk of dementia. So, inflammation is now linked very clearly to an increased risk of dementia. In a way, your body can't repair itself as well if it's got the fire on. 

So your immune system is now seen as absolutely crucial to repairing everything in your body. And if someone is not turning it off completely every night, you are using up a lot of that immune energy. And that's why we get to this state. 

So it really affects all parts of your body and your mental and your physical health. And this is a modern phenomenon. 

Jonathan Wolf: And Tim, I mean, it's a pretty stunning set of things. I seem to remember. You've said to me that it might even be linked to cancers. 

Tim Spector: That's right. So there's now a pretty unifying idea that as well as it being involved in aging, so accelerated aging because if you think about it, your immune system is there to pick off damaged cells and kill them off and get rid of them.

So it's like you're pruning your garden; you're topping off those dead flowers so the new ones can keep growing. But if you've got inflammation, you don't do that as effectively. So the aging process accelerates, and at the same time, you are not picking up those early cancer cells.

We now know that low-level inflammation is a risk factor for nearly all cancers. Again, because the immune surveillance system is being distracted by all this other heat. So it can't do its job; it can't zoom straight to that early cancer and pick it off. 

Because all of us have cancers every day. They're micro cancers, and our body's immune system just deals with them brilliantly. We don't even know about it. 

Jonathan Wolf: You said that all of us have cancers every day. 

Tim Spector: Yes, you have. Very early, just a few cells turn cancerous, and they send signals to your immune system. And the immune system will go and attack them and kill them. So you'll never know about it. But this is happening every day in your body, and that's another reason why we need to keep our immune system so healthy because it is keeping us alive. 

This is all fairly new. We didn't know this happened 10 years ago, but it's fairly clear that this is why with age, you're more likely to get cancer, because your immune system doesn't work as well with age, and with age, your inflammation levels slowly creep up as well.

So it's a complicated, but it's also a very unifying idea that actually our immune system there really affects pretty much every disease. In our immune system, 70% of it is in our gut and therefore our gut microbes are the key influences on the immune system and what influences the gut microbes our diet.

So it all comes full circle in this line. So everyone needs to know now about inflammation, their immune system. The gut microbes and how to feed it because they're all linked. And this is really essential to having a really good, healthy life where you can postpone these diseases, which are all triggered by having too much inflammation at any one time.

Jonathan Wolf: It's amazing listening to this because I feel you've probably listed almost all the things that most listeners are going to be worrying about when they think about their health. From heart disease to diabetes, dementia, and cancer, you even threw in mental health and depression. Is this really sort of mainstream belief now

Tim Spector: This is a mainstream belief.

It doesn't mean it's the only factor. It's one of the consistent factors in all those diseases. So even if other things are going on, if you've got a baseline level where you have inflammation, you know, as this sort of overexcitation of your immune system, everything else is more likely to happen. So everything feeds off this because your body just isn't working in the right way.

So that's why it is a really important base, and this wasn't known five or 10 years ago, 

Federica Amati: But now it is understood to be essentially the fire that fuels most, if not all, chronic diseases. So it's really well understood. 

Tim touched on Inflammaging, which is one of the terms we use now to describe this accelerated aging process when there's higher inflammation and it ,also really impacts metabolic disease.

So Tim touched on the fact that if you have chronic inflammation, you are more likely to develop insulin resistance. And one of the things I'm really interested in is how when you have increased fat mass, it really increases your inflammation. And the localized fat cells that are sort of overfilled with fat tend to send out their own inflammatory messages, and that is one of the hallmarks that you see in people who have obesity.

So it really does tie everything together, I think. When we think about what's the role of inflammation, it's one of the mechanisms by which our external influences cause disease or maintain disease states. Because inflammation is impacted by so much from the immune system to diet, to pollutants in the air, to stress levels, how you sleep and how much you move.

Tim mentioned that your immune system tends to dampen down with age, and one of the main ways that happens is the thymus gland, which is a central organ in the immune system, shrinks. But one of the factors that helps the thymus gland stay really active and plump and juicy is exercise. But we also know that as we age, we move less.

So it's all connected, and there are clear things we can do that can help to sustain a healthy immune system, which means we'll have appropriate inflammation when it's needed, like a cut or a viral infection. But it will turn off and not have the chronic inflammation when it's not needed.

Jonathan Wolf: How does food either cause or reduce inflammation? 

Federica Amati: Well, so the food is a key component that can help to dampen it down or switch it up, right? 

So there's a nice tool that's been developed quite recently called the dietary inflammatory index, which is a way of looking at foods according to their sort of potential inflammatory role.

Anyone who listens to this podcast won't be surprised to know that a diet that's high in colorful fruits and vegetables, whole grains, and healthy fats from things like extra virgin olive oil, they're the dietary patterns that tend to dampen inflammation and help our immune system return to baseline. So this healthy sort of switch on and switch off when it's not needed. 

Whereas diets that are high in foods such as processed meats or added sugars like sugar-sweetened sodas. They're the diets that really ramp up inflammation. 

One of our own papers that we published from Predict One showed that when you have high circulating levels of these things called triglycerides, which result from either poor dietary fats, so poor quality fat, saturated fats, or high intake of sugars, when those go up a lot after a meal, they cause more inflammation.

So, even within one mealtime, you can see an inflammatory response that's more than the inflammatory response needed for digestion alone. 

A good example of how this is an on-off process is when you have a meal. Jonathan, your body will have an inflammatory response to help you absorb nutrients in your small intestine.

So this inflammatory response means that you're just able to extract nutrients with a higher blood flow from a slightly leakier gut just in that period after you eat to help with digestion. But then you want to switch it off. 

In our study, what we saw is that people who had this diet that was high in sugars, high in saturated fats, that inflammation stayed high for six hours after the meal, which you don't want.

We found people who had more visceral fat mass, so more of that metabolically active fat around your organs, and people who had a lower gut microbiome score tended to have more of that inflammation staying higher after a meal than people who had a better score. 

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Tim Spector: This is really important. Just to put it in context, because as people know when they go and see their family doctor, they talk about cholesterol levels and fat in food and all these factors. 

But there was a large U.S. study recently looking at outcomes over 30 years in health professionals in the U.S. It showed that your levels of inflammation in the blood, well twice as important as your cholesterol levels in the blood.

And I think this, for the first time, has really shown us that it doesn't mean, you know, cholesterol has no role, but compared to the role of inflammation, it is really minor. And the good thing is that diet can shift inflammation much quicker than it can shift, for example, a cholesterol level. 

Jonathan Wolf: And so, Tim, you're saying that inflammation was twice as important as my cholesterol levels for understanding whether I'm going to get sick?

Tim Spector: Correct. 

Federica Amati: It's that interplay between the cholesterol and the inflammation because it causes the damage to the blood vessels. That's what actually causes it. And then the cholesterol clogs it up. But you need the two factors. 

So it's interesting, often you'll find people who have high cholesterol levels, but actually fairly healthy arteries when you go and look at them. And then there are others who may have fairly normal cholesterol levels, but they've got more heart disease because their inflammation is high. 

But what's really nice is that a diet that lowers your cholesterol levels also helps with inflammation. So you are getting two beds with one stone and 

Tim Spector: Statins actually work, it seems primarily by reducing inflammation rather than by reducing the cholesterol level. And that's probably why they have this quite dramatic effect on heart disease and mortality. 

So it's all pointing towards inflammation being the main driver of so many diseases. So we need to understand much more about it, realize that everyone has it to some extent. It's not like a yes-no phenomenon and we should be doing everything we can to keep it to minimal levels.

Jonathan Wolf: Tim, Fede was describing the fact that we know that certain diets seem to lead to lower inflammation than others. So you're describing that food matters, but do we understand why? 

Tim Spector: We understand some of the reasons why, but I think it's important to step back a bit, look at the bigger picture here, and realize that gut health overall is probably one of the most important drivers of inflammation and our immune system.

So we want to be thinking about what's really good for our overall gut health. And to do that, we really need a rich variety of different foods, of all the chemicals that are in natural food. 

We need that diversity to make sure that we have all the good species we can possibly be nourishing inside our guts because they're like these chemical factories producing all these really good, often anti-inflammatory chemicals themselves, and we only get that through this massive diversity of plants. 

So, one superfood itself isn't going to do the job. You need a rich variety of them eating the rainbows. We've always called it the high polyphenols because they're super good chemicals for our gut microbes.

You need things like fermented foods, which have anti-inflammatory effects. You need to avoid all the nasty stuff that comes from these highly processed, high-risk foods that have chemicals that have pro-inflammatory effects. 

So it's really important, before we dive into the detail, to just remember that if you can look after your gut health, keep the number of good bugs higher than the number of bad bugs, then that will push down your inflammation levels, however you manage to do it.

Federica Amati: I love that because if you feed your gut microbes, it actually helps you to maintain this really healthy lining of the gut with a nice thick mucin layer, which is like protecting the very delicate lining. And you can only really do that with a healthy gut microbiome that's been fed plenty of plants and healthy fats.

Going back to what Tim was saying earlier, we talked about the fact that the majority of the immune system cells sit just outside the gut. And when there's this really lovely barrier and good connection, the gut microbiome sends signals to the immune system to say everything's okay. No need to react; you can calm down the inflammation. 

And that's why one of the key ways that people often describe feeling inflamed is when they have gut issues. They'll say, you know, I've got indigestion, or I feel bloated, or it is painful. Those are all signs of gut inflammation, and that's often the one that's quickest to show up and quickest to reverse with diet.

Jonathan Wolf: So it sounds like the short summary here is long-term inflammation is really bad. This is really important in terms of affecting your long-term health. And you are saying that the food that we eat because of the way that it feeds our microbiome is sort of central to whether or not that inflammation is always on or it's switched off.

Tim Spector: Yes. Or degrees in between. So it's not necessarily an on-off switch. You can dial it down or dial it. So, perhaps more like a thermostat than an on-off switch.

Jonathan Wolf: So everyone has some level and the question, is it on super high, medium or really quite low, which is a good place to be in this modern world.

Tim Spector: Correct. And there are a lot of people with autoimmune diseases where the disease itself is causing the body to fight itself, and they have raised inflammation levels. Anyone listening with an autoimmune disease knows the consequences of that. They're getting the tiredness, the fatigue, you know, and they often have depression as well. They're stiff in the mornings. 

All these things that you get with these classic levels of inflammation, you're getting to a much more reduced extent when you get to minor levels. 

But in a way, everyone is suffering to some extent. So, everyone can improve whatever state of inflammation they have, even if they don't feel they're unwell.

Jonathan Wolf: So let's talk about some real actionable advice and talk about foods that can fight inflammation. I know you've brought seven foods that can fight inflammation.

But I'd like to start with one that I asked about right at the beginning, which is what about detox juice cleanse? Right. We see them advertised everywhere. I know quite a few people who do this as a wait to clean themselves after what they feel is poor living. Thumbs up?

Federica Amati: No. In some ways, it can help people feel better because they're just giving their body a break. So, typically, after you've had maybe a holiday and you've drunk loads of alcohol and you've eaten loads of foods you wouldn't normally eat that aren't necessarily helpful.

The issue here is that with juicing, you are not actually feeding the gut microbes what they need to do this important role of maintaining a healthy, happy immune system and maintaining this dynamic switch of inflammation down.

We need fiber. And when you juice something, you remove all the fiber. Now, the seven foods we're bringing today, Jonathan, are part of a healthy dietary pattern.

So, as Tim said, they're not superfoods, but they are nice examples of the types of foods that you should include in a diet pattern overall. So day after day.

Consistency is key, and a juice cleanse is never going to be consistent because no one can live on it, and it doesn't offer everything you need. So, it's not a good way to think about how to reduce your inflammation with diet. 

Tim Spector: And it's also the misconception that the reason we have inflammation is we've got these toxins in our body that we just need to flush out of the system, like a bit of plumbing. And this has been pervasive on social media for the last 10 years, really. But we have kidneys and liver that do a very good job.

Federica Amati: If you feed them well, if you drink your water, giving your immune system and giving your body overall what it needs to function optimally so that it can dampen down unnecessary chronic inflammation. But it can remain dynamic in case inflammation is needed because you cut yourself or because you get a viral infection.

Jonathan Wolf: So I need to feed it the right thing. It's not just about flushing out the bad thing. I need to give it the right things to support me and be healthy.

Federica Amati: And then trust your liver and your kidneys to do their job in removing the toxins. So inflammation, as Tim said, is very active, so it does cause a lot of waste, and your liver and your kidneys will get rid of that waste product if you're just eating a good diet, sleeping well, and drinking enough water.

Jonathan Wolf: Brilliant. So the juice cleanse is out? 

Federica Amati: Yes, it's out. 

Jonathan Wolf: Let's talk about our seven foods. And Tim, let's start with a classic that even my daughter will eat: broccoli. Why is it a standout for fighting inflammation? 

Tim Spector: Well, it's a great example, and I think it's one of the brassica family, which includes all kinds of things like cabbages and leeks and onions and garlic and cauliflower.

It's because it has anti-inflammatory properties that have been shown. And one of the main chemicals - and this is just an example of one of many, but there's a really cool chemical there that gets released when you eat broccoli called sulforaphane. 

This has all these effects on the body, these anti-inflammatory effects on the body. And it's been shown to reduce obesity related inflammation when you give it to adolescents. It can reduce insulin levels as well.

And you get even more effects when you look at broccoli sprouts. And this is a general rule. Because the sprout comes out of the seed, and those first shoots have really concentrated amounts of all these nutrients, particularly sulforaphanes. And that gives them even more potential. So the younger that shoot is, the more you're getting of this really cool chemical. 

Now, there are some problems with sulforaphane, because if you just throw your broccoli into a pan, you'll actually inhibit the sulforaphane from being released because the heat does this. So there's a little chemistry that needs to be going on here. 

So I've got a tip to overcome this, something called chop and stop. This is the same for broccoli, and it's the same for garlic and onions. You just chop it up, which releases the sulforaphane. As you break down the cell walls, all leaks out, and rather than being instantly deactivated by the heat, you leave it for 10 minutes, have a cup of coffee or a sneaky glass of wine and you can then put it in the pan and you're getting all the sulforaphane. 

The other tip is to maximize the sulforaphane is to actually microwave your broccoli. You get three or four times more sulforaphane when you microwave it than when you heat it. Most people think microwaving is really unhealthy, but actually in some, cases it can be a real boon, it because it works differently. 

This is a little bit of trickery. So what I've said for broccoli also goes for cauliflower, cabbage, onions, garlic, and all those foods contain not just the sulforapharine but many other good things that are really good for our gut and, therefore our immune system. So that's a great example of an anti-inflammatory food. 

Jonathan Wolf: I love it. Tim, you're making me feel much better about my poor parenting, which is that my daughter never gets broccoli anyway, other than thrown in the microwave, and now I'm going to claim it's all in order to give her way more of the, what was it called again?

Tim Spector: Sulforaphane. 

Jonathan Wolf: Sulforaphane. So brilliant. Alright, Fede, next up, I think, is olive oil. 

Federica Amati: Oh yes. 

Jonathan Wolf: But I understand not just any type of olive oil. 

Federica Amati: Yes. So you want extra virgin olive oil. Extra virgin olive oil contains lots of polyphenols. 

So these really powerful chemicals that we know have a big impact both on our microbiome, so our gut microbes love these. They break them down and make more chemicals. And they have a direct effect in our bodies, especially on our vascular health, so inside our blood vessels.

Extra virgin olive oil has comparable effects on inflammation, including pain, to ibuprofen. And the way it does this is because it inhibits something called COX-2, which is one of the main pathways that causes inflammation.

Jonathan Wolf: Drinking olive oil could have the same effect on reducing inflammation as taking ibuprofen. 

Federica Amati: Exactly that. So if you have it every day, you might have some arthritis, or you might have an inflammatory condition, or you might just be wanting to look after your immune system and your inflammation after this episode. Having extra virgin olive oil in your daily diet actually actively helps to dampen down that inflammation. 

Jonathan Wolf: That is slightly mad. So you pop an Advil, or you could just pour olive oil over your food.  And I know that Tim pours a lot of olive oil over his food. 

Federica Amati: Yeah, I think, I think we could probably compete on that, can't we?

Tim Spector: And I never take Advil, so there you go. 

Federica Amati: But the great thing about it is that there's the actual chemical that's involved in this COX-2 inhibition, so this pathway is the same one that gives that peppery, slightly scratchy feeling to extra virgin olive oil. 

So if you have a really fresh extra virgin olive oil, you take a sip or you smell it, you know, you can almost feel it scratching the back of your throat. That's the polyphenol that you're looking for. 

So the sharper the extra virgin olive oil, the more it's anti-inflammatory potential. 

Jonathan Wolf: And Tim and I actually did a podcast on olive oil. If anyone wants to listen to it, they can just search for olive oil and ZOE. And so I do remember this because you basically get me choking as I take this olive oil, and was totally unprepared for the hit of a fresh olive oil. 

Federica Amati: And I think it's just so worth pointing out in your extra virgin olive oil can be expensive nowadays, Jonathan, but it's about the same price as a bottle of fairly cheap wine. 

If you're looking after your health, the best investment you can make is to include it in your diet and to just buy some, even if you're only dressing food with it. It's honestly such an amazing food. 

Jonathan Wolf: Brilliant. Tim, the next one might surprise people who aren't listening to this show all the time because it's dark chocolate. It's a treat. How can it possibly be reducing my inflammation? 

Tim Spector: Well, again, it's not dissimilar to Fede's extra virgin olive oil in that chocolate contains polyphenols, very high levels if it's good quality chocolate.

So we're not talking about the average Hershey's or Cadburys that has really low levels. We are talking ones that have over 70% of pure cocoa in there, and the rest is just made up of a little bit of sugar or very few other ingredients. 

So for chocolate that has few additives, just really cocoa mass, cocoa butter, a bit of sugar.

Then a couple of studies in real humans have shown that in people with kidney disease who have a lot of inflammation going on, they can really reduce their inflammation levels by taking these dark chocolate supplements for a couple of months. And they reduced TNF levels. 

Another study did the same in I think they were obese adolescents who as Fede explained, you know, obesity itself causes inflammation and they were able to give these chocolate for a couple of weeks plus an exercise plan. And those that took the chocolate and the exercise got this double whammy of the real big drop in their CRP, which is the main marker of inflammation. 

o I think there's good evidence that chocolate, as well as being super tasty and good for your gut has these direct anti-inflammatory effects, which is really cool.

Jonathan Wolf: So can I now eat limitless amounts of dark chocolate because Tim tells me I'm fighting inflammation? 

Tim Spector: I don’t know the upper level, Jonathan.  I would suspect not. There must be a a, a maximum level. We're talking people having, you know, two or three segments a day. And generally, the stronger the chocolate, the harder it is to eat too much of it.

The more concentrated it is, the less sugar it is, and the safer it is. 

Jonathan Wolf: So it's really the sugar that you're saying I can't… So if it was just the chocolate, I can knock myself out. 

Tim Spector: Correct. It's very hard to overdo it on the 90% chocolate, 70%, you're still getting a reasonable amount of sugar in there that you don't necessarily want to be eating bars and bars of.

Federica Amati: Yeah, and I think to Tim's point, it's really hard to eat two bars of 90% dark chocolate. 

But it's exciting to hear how it can reduce inflammation, especially in people who have obesity, because reducing that inflammation is key to being able to lose fat. Because when those fat cells are in an inflammatory state, it's much harder for lipolysis, for the fat to come out.

So this mechanism is super exciting,  as a potential to help people who have excess fat actually lose some of that. 

Tim Spector: And the old studies used to link eating chocolate with reduced heart disease. 

Federica Amati: For the hypertension.  

Tim Spector: And it could be that this is because it's actually reducing the inflammation in the blood vessels rather than a direct effect on the heart.

Jonathan Wolf: And if I'm listening to this and saying, oh, I really like the idea of eating dark chocolate, but you also made clear it was only a good, dark chocolate. Is there any easy advice for distinguishing that? 

Tim Spector: Yeah, so over 70% cocoa. So, you know, I would go between 70 and 90% and look on the back of the pack, and you want as few ingredients as possible. 

So some of them do have about 10 ingredients, because they've got lots of emulsifiers, preservatives, fillers, other things. You don't want that; you want, really just cocoa, cocoa, mass, and sugar. So three or four ingredients is your ideal. And that's the test of quality.

You may have to pay more for that, but I think it's well worth it. Because otherwise, you're counteracting some of the good effects with these bad chemicals. 

Federica Amati: And it's important that the fat is from cocoa butter, not palm oil. So often, the cheaper chocolates will replace the cocoa butter, which is more expensive ingredient, with palm oil or other fats.

Cocoa butter seems to have an especially beneficial impact compared to other fats. So, exactly as Tim said, the back of the pack should say, cocoa, cocoa, cocoa, cocoa, everything. And a bit of sugar. And that's it. 

Jonathan Wolf: Alright, let's go on to number four. Fede, those are rather small food. Chi a seeds.

Federica Amati: Yeah. Chia seeds. So chia seeds are amazing, Jonathan, because they contain a great selection of nutrients. Hundreds. So, to Tim's point, all these foods have hundreds of chemicals that have a synergistic effect, and when you eat them together, it's like a cocktail of beneficial things happen. 

But with chia seeds especially, there's three things to call out; they're high in omega-3 fatty acids, so these are the kinds of fats that are really, really beneficial for us and have a direct anti-inflammatory effect. This is through the gut microbiome, so our gut microbes love omega-3 fatty acids. It's their favorite fat. 

Jonathan Wolf: I'm sorry, I'm just smiling at the idea they have a favorite fat.

Federica Amati: They do. They really do. And so, this omega-3 fatty acid concentration in these tiny seeds is brilliant. 

They have plant protein. Now, plant protein is much better for us long term than animal protein. And chia seeds are packed full of all of the amino acids, and this is important. 

Remember when we talked about the fact that inflammation is very metabolically active, it requires a lot of work. So the little tiny seeds provide all the amino acids that the immune system needs to rebuild all the immune system cells. So really good. 

And it's really high in fiber. So, in one tiny food, you get this variety of benefits, plus the polyphenols it contains. So just two teaspoons of chia provide you with fiber, protein, and omega-3 fatty acids.

You asked me whether we could make dessert anti-inflammatory, and here I am, proposing a dark cacao chia pudding for the win if you're looking for something that's anti-inflammatory.

So get your chia seeds and put 2 or 3 teaspoons at the bottom of your jar, depending on how big it is. So just give it a go.

And then what you want to do is add some raw cacao powder would be amazing. So just pure cacao. Put one teaspoon in there. If you love chocolate, maybe two, but it's going to be quite strong. 

Jonathan Wolf: That's basically chocolate powder. 

Federica Amati: It's powder, yeah. So just real cacao. And then what you want to do is put in there your favorite plant milk.

I actually go for kefir. So, pour in some kefir. Okay. Then give it a really, really good stir. Now, make sure that you [don’t] fill up the glass of the container because chia, even though it doesn't look like a lot, it will swell. It'll become quite voluminous. 

So, I choose kefir. You can do a plant milk if you want, or dairy if you want dairy. And then give it a really, really good stir. 

I would personally also add some like frozen blueberries or frozen berries in there, just to give it that little acidity edge. And then if you want to, you could squeeze a little bit of honey just to give it a little sweetness, especially if you're doing it for your kids or if you just fancy something that's actually a pudding, 

Put it in the fridge and let it rest overnight. Ideally, that would be really good. And the next day, what you'll get is this sort of quite creamy consistency. 

Anyone who's had chia pudding knows what I mean. It's hard to describe it, but it's got a good consistency to it, and you can eat it as a pudding. Or you can have it for breakfast. You can add some extra seeds and nuts to it. You could add it to your yogurt bowl. 

You can do so much with chia pudding. Actually. 

Tim Spector: It's super filling, isn't it? That's the thing about it. So you can't eat that much of it, which also makes it quite healthy.

Federica Amati: It's really good. Another thing I do a lot of is make chia raspberry jam. So you get some frozen raspberries, some chia, smush them together. I mean, that is it, that's all you do. And leave it. Leave it in the fridge. 

And that is a raspberry jam that you can put onto your porridge, or you can have it with your toast if you want to. And it is completely no added sugar and full packed with these cheer seeds. 

So chia are a flex. Like once you get used to using them, you'll be sprinkling them all over the place. If you wanted to elevate it further, Jonathan, you could actually put a teaspoon of extra virgin olive oil in the mixture. And then, I mean, we might as well go home.

Jonathan Wolf: I've never been totally convinced about olive oil in my pudding, in my dessert, if I'm totally honest. 

Federica Amati: It's good, actually. Yeah. 

Tim Spector: A mousse recipe with olive oil is very good. It's fantastic. 

Federica Amati: Yeah, it is. 

Jonathan Wolf: I'll keep working at it. 

Tim, turmeric, which gets a lot of buzz, but is it really as magical as people say? 

Tim Spector: Until I started looking at it, I didn't think it was up to much, but I'm actually pretty impressed by turmeric.

It's got an active ingredient called curcumin, and that makes up 5% of the turmeric. It's not very well absorbed on its own, which people don't realize, so it does need other spices mixed.

Which comes back to this idea that all of these on their own might not be as good as if you have them all together as this diversity package.

But there are over 20 clinical trials of using curcumin in association with cancer, chemotherapy. The meta-analyses show that it improves the results of the chemotherapy. 

So, although each of them is rather small and not particularly good. Combined, that gives me a really good feeling about them. There are also, within them, studies show it does reduce inflammation. 

Now, what's also really interesting, there are 10 studies on curcumin in osteoarthritis, where these are particularly forms where they've got quite bad pain, which means they've got inflammation in the joint. Often, it's the knee or the hands they're studying, and doses up to 10 grams a day have actually shown to have a better effect than placebo as a pain medicine.

So, it goes back to some of the other ways these foods work. Inflammation can, you know, come across as tiredness, as pain, as swelling, as redness, any of these things. 

So I am pretty convinced. And there's also some other studies showing that in people with a particular blood cancer called multiple myeloma, where it can last for years and years and years. After about 20 years, you get an increase in these plasma cells. 

It's really good for intervening with nutrition because you can see what's happening very slowly. The trials do show it reduces the speed at which that cancer's progressing, and en route, you're reducing inflammation through all these markers they've done.

Jonathan Wolf: And Tim, just to clarify, this is this extract from turmeric extract that has turmeric been seen on this particular… You can actually see it was having some effect on slowing down the…

Tim Spector: Yes. They've done trials against placebo in humans. So you know, a lot of this, a lot of the literature is full of mouse studies and little test tube plate ones, which are pretty useless.

So you've got to really sort of focus on the clinical trials. And this multiple myeloma is a perfect sort of cancer way to study because it's very, very slow and clearly shows that people taking it are going to have much better outcomes than people not.

So I'm now a convert, but it's clear you've gotta have it really not on its own. You can't just be swigging turmeric on its own. Not only would it stain your whole kitchen and your mouth, but it wouldn't probably be as effective. And they've shown that it gets activated when you have it with black pepper or chilli. 

Jonathan Wolf: I was going to ask Tim because I remember we did this podcast with Kanchan on spices, and I remember her talking about the fact that in traditional Indian cooking, you cook it with lots of different spices, and there was something to do with the way that these spices work together. There is some science behind this. 

Tim Spector: Absolutely. There's a synergy that they sort of unlock each other's potential. And that's why we are big fans of mixed spices and putting at least five of them together into a spice mix and having those regularly is probably better than just only having, say, curcumin on its own.

So, making this part of your meals and your food makes absolute sense. There was a Singapore study where they added one to two teaspoons of a spice mix every day. And after a couple of weeks, they saw big changes in the gut microbiome.  

Jonathan Wolf: So, just adding turmeric to my coffee might not be the way to get the benefit. I need to have this mixed in with a bunch of other things at the same time. 

Tim Spector: Yeah, I mean, you'll probably get some benefit from that, but it won't be anything like the benefit you could get if you had a variety of spices to unlock the potential of the curcumin in that turmeric. 

Federica Amati: Actually, a lot of these compounds and spices are absorbed with fats, so you want to have it in a dressing, for example, or where you've cooked with fats because that also helps to increase the absorption.

So not your coffee, no, but like a delicious dish or even a dressing. The Singapore study is such a good one because it was a simple curry spice mix you can just get from the supermarket. 

It doesn't have to be complicated, and just two teaspoons without a day will have a big impact on your gut microbiome composition and downstream effects on your immune system, as we've talked about.

Jonathan Wolf: Amazing. Fede, let's move on to the next one, which is berries, but I understand specifically raspberries. 

Federica Amati: Yeah, so raspberries are are wonderful because they are packed with fiber and packed with these colorful polyphenols, these colorful chemicals, bioactive compounds that have a variety of impacts on our bodies and the immune system.

Now, raspberries have actually been studied. There's a meta-analysis on raspberries and how they improve inflammatory markers and overall health. So, there is good science behind raspberries. 

There's good science behind lots of colorful, flavorful berries and foods. I've chosen raspberries today because they're something you can pick up easily from the supermarket or, best, I think, frozen. You can buy frozen raspberries and add them to your chia pudding, to your smoothies, to your porridge, to your yogurt. 

As I said, they're powerhouses for supporting our gut microbiome health and for providing specific types of bioactive compounds that directly dampen inflammatory markers. 

And again, in the studies in these, a lot of them are talking about just one or two handfuls, a very doable amount. People listening to this might think yes, but they just go furry in the fridge within a day, which is why I go back to frozen raspberries. 

Freezing actually preserves the bioactive compounds better, and it means that you can keep them in the freezer for as long as you want, add them to lots of different foods, and really reap the benefits of having them in your diet.

Tim Spector: And they're a lot cheaper, aren't they? 

Federica Amati: A lot cheaper when they're frozen. Yeah. 

Tim Spector: People don't realize that you got these little speckles in the raspberries, and each of them is an individual seed. They contain hundreds or thousands of seeds within each berry. And that gives them those benefits.

Federica Amati: They're so much higher in fiber and in polyphenols than even blueberries- I love blueberries, by the way, but they are amazing. 

Jonathan Wolf: I remember Tim explaining to me because I used to be a big fan of blueberries. I feel they got all the spotlight, you know, maybe 10 years ago or something. And Tim, you explained to me like the berries that the best are the ones that are actually lots and lots of seeds.

Whereas a blueberry is just one seed, so it's mainly sugar, which what tastes nice. But you were saying that there are various berries that are actually almost like lots and lots of berries all squeezed together. Is there anything other than a raspberry that's like that? 

Tim Spector: Well, blackberries are very, very similar. So Fede said about raspberries, you could say for blackberries as well. And that, you know, you can pick those in many parts of world and get your own.

I think logan berries are quite similar. So most of these types that look like that have similar properties, and that's why strawberries, although they're also sugary, also contain these little tiny seeds in them as well that, you know, give them health benefits as well. 

Jonathan Wolf: So you get a lot more outta that, you know, versus…  

Federica Amati: An apple, say, but that's why berries are so good, and we have to remember as well, Jonathan, that eating whole fruit generally is something we don't do enough of and really supports our health.

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One of the main ways we think eating fruit supports health is in reducing inflammation. It's why increasing fruit intake is so closely related to decreased heart disease risk. 

So, eating colorful, fresh whole fruits, not fruit juice. So none of the juice fasts,  is so good for us.

Jonathan Wolf: And this is why a blackberry might be better than a banana, for example, relatively speaking, because it hasn't got all these seeds versus…

Federica Amati: Yeah, they have different benefits, right? So, like bananas have their own, but there's something definitely to be said about berries, and raspberries are the ones that we're picking today for spring.

Jonathan Wolf: Alright, we come to the seventh. Last but not least, Tim. Red cabbage kraut. Okay, that's caught me out. Everything else I've got my head round, even a chia seed; it's sort of on sale everywhere. I'm not sure I've ever actually bought one, but I've definitely, you know, it's out there. 

Red cabbage kraut. Bit of a wild card. Talk me through it, Tim. 

Tim Spector: It is a wild card, and it's really thrown in there as an example of a fermented food. And it may be one that people haven't thought about quite as much because it's a bit different. 

But really what I'm trying to emphasize here is that any fermented food that includes things like yogurts, cafes, regular sauerkraut, kimchies, which is like, you know, spicy sauerkraut,  misos. All of these have anti-inflammatory properties, and these have been shown in multiple studies, both in test tubes and in humans. 

The most recent studies often use multiple different ferments. So rather than focusing just on one, I think it's really important that people learn to diversify what they're eating because each ferment will have a different set of microbes in them.

So yogurts will have, say, three microbes, and some of these more complex krauts and kimchies can have up to 20 or 30, and some kombucha. 

So this red sauerkraut is just one of an example of things that you can add to your meal in tiny little amounts. A real classic study from Stanford showed that when they asked volunteers to try and get five small portions a day of ferments, they could really show in two weeks of dramatic significant reduction in inflammation levels.

I think that's the first time anyone really shown in really good study, it’s from our colleague Christopher Gardner's group. 

The other study that we did at ZOE, which many listeners might know about, is the ZOE Ferment study where we asked 10,000 people to take at least three ferments a day for two weeks. And although we didn't measure inflammation levels, we did measure things that are correlated, like tiredness and mood and energy levels, and they all improve within two weeks. 

So the vast majority of people taking these ferments at least three times a day, or in three portions a day, will get changed to the inflammation level that translates to improved symptoms.

I think that's something that everyone can do, and that's in addition to all these other foods and tricks. 

Federica Amati: And I love that because in the study Tim's referring to, in the second arm, they had a high fiber diet. So one arm had fermented foods, and the second arm had a high fiber diet. And to see the difference between the two arms is amazing.

So it shows you that fermented foods have a different effect on the immune system compared to high fiber alone. The high fiber diet participants had improved immune system function, so it was more ready to go when needed. The markers were really good to show that priming. 

But in the fermented food arm, they showed this active attenuation of inflammatory markers that you didn't see in the high fiber arm.

So that's so cool. And I love the red kraut because it's colorful, and it's high in bioactive compounds. It's fermented, it does all the things in one jar that you can make yourself at home. 

Jonathan Wolf: Amazing. So, I think we have these seven incredible ways to fight inflammation. 

I'd love to finish off by looking at how you might try and lower inflammation over time. And I know you've emphasized, you know, repeatedly, that you can't just pick those seven things alone. 

We'll start with a day, then look out over a week, a month, and a year. Tim, what could we do? 

Tim Spector: Well, I'd start with getting a good night's sleep. A poor night's sleep increases stress and inflammation. And so if you can sort that bit of your life out. 

We know that, you know, sleep is then related to your food choices and your gut health. So that's a simple thing to focus on. Just go to bed a bit earlier, and you will actually see an improvement in inflammation levels very rapidly. 

Federica Amati: And we've seen from our study that if you have food on one day that is really high in free sugars and really high in saturated fats, you'll have more post-meal inflammation.

So, if just for today, you can choose to have something that's high in fiber, whole foods, whole grains, and low in added saturated fats like butter or meat, fatty meat, you are likely to be helping your inflammatory markers for today. 

Jonathan Wolf: What about if we stretch out now to a week? What could I do that is different as I start to think about a week? 

Tim Spector: I think you'd notice inflammation levels coming down if you stopped ultra-processed foods, particularly the high-risk processed foods that cause the most damage. The ones that are high in additives, hyper make you overeat, et cetera. 

Studies are suggesting that's going to have an effect at about after a week takes a few days, you can't do it instantly. You'll notice improvements in your tiredness, new energy levels. So I think that's a pretty good tip. 

Federica Amati: So over a week, I would say, if you are adding those two teaspoons of mixed spices and two teaspoons of chia, so let's get those in however you like them. So that's increasing your bioactive compounds and increasing your fiber and omega-3s. You'll see an improvement in your overall wellbeing and inflammatory markers. 

Jonathan Wolf: Okay. So what about if I now expand this and think about what I'm doing across the month? 

Tim Spector: Right. Well, in a month, that's given you plenty of time really to improve your gut health. And how you do that is firstly by improving the diversity of your gut microbes, improving the ratio of the good to bad bugs so that the good bugs are squeezing out the pro-inflammatory ones.

They've just got no room to live, they've got no food. You're being brutal. You're just eliminating them. 

And the way you do that is you hit them with at least 30 different plants a week. You hit them with all the bright colors, the polyphenols that are food for the good microbes, and you're also going to be hitting them with a whole range of fermented foods and giving your gut a rest as well.

So I think that's what you can start to think about when you're going for a month. Our studies show that within a couple of weeks of that month, you'll start to see the symptomatic benefits on your health. 

Jonathan Wolf: I think Tim stole three or four there. Fedie, what else have you got to add? 

Federica Amati: Well, I was going to say that it goes back to this pattern, so try to establish a really healthy pattern in your diet.

So, we've talked today about including nuts and seeds. So we talked about chia, but that's in the nuts and seeds group. We've talked about ferment, so adding those in. 

Healthy fats from extra virgin olive oil and from the omega threes, the chia seeds, and fresh whole fruit. So the raspberries.

The last one we haven't touched on today, but it's very important is to try and include pulses in your diet. So the lentils, the beans, the chickpeas, whether it's in hummus or in chili, however you like to eat them. 

They're really wonderful foods for our gut microbes but also just for our overall health to support us in a way that decreases the effects of higher sugar, higher fat foods. 

So Tim's right; trying to remove these high-risk processed foods from our diet is super important, but also supporting our body to deal with that metabolic challenge if it does arise with high fiber foods.

I would also say that if you do drink alcohol, try to make sure you're having it in moderate amounts that support your health, not excess, because we know that alcohol is very pro-inflammatory for our gut and for our bodies. 

Jonathan Wolf: Alright, now we get to expand to a whole year. I feel like you've told me an amazing number of things. Is there anything else you'd add? 

Tim Spector: When you're looking at a year's time scale, you need to think of all the things we've talked about. So I think we've talked about all the food changes you need to be making. Just to remind you about the lifestyle thing. 

So again, how important sleep is, how important having a regular sleep pattern is, going to bed earlier. You are not eating late at night, so you're leaving long spaces. 

You've perhaps tried to do this time restriction eating where you are leaving 14 14-hour gap at least. You're doing that several nights a week, maybe, and you're exercising as well. 

What's interesting is that people who do marathons and extreme exercise actually have higher inflammation levels, and people who do no exercise have high inflammation levels. 

But there's the Goldilocks bit in the middle, and that's just right. Where everyone has their own levels that actually fit in with your body, you reduce your inflammation level. So getting your exercise sorted out what suits you is also important. 

I think the other thing is to have a pragmatic level. If you're going for a year, we want people to have better gut health at a year than they had when they started.

This is a long journey, it's not a short sprint. This generally means an 80% rule as well. It means you can deviate when you take your kids to a children's party, you can have the odd sausage roll. 

Federica Amati: It's always pizza, isn't it at children's parties?

Tim Spector: And all the studies show that you are resistant to junk food inflammation. They've done this study in mice. If most of the time you are eating gut healthy foods, 80% of the time. So the 80-20 rule, I think, applies there. 

That's the advice I would have for people looking for this long-term gain. And they'll continue to get the benefits without having to be a saint. 

Jonathan Wolf: So you don't have to be perfect.

Federica Amati: No, and my last point is consistency is king. 

So if you can be consistent with your choices, if you can make sure that you're including these foods, most of the time every day, you mentally noting you have this informed eating habit of right, how am I getting these fiber rich foods bioactive rich foods?

So have consistency as the goal, not perfection. That includes sleep, exercise, and moving every day. What are you doing to mitigate your stress? So we know stress also has a big impact on inflammation. How are you spending time with loved ones? Is it spending time in nature? 

Getting these things consistent is how you see actual progress in the long term. To Tim's point is not like a short sprint. You want to build habits that you can actually maintain day after day to the point where they become part of your normal routine without you having to think about it. 

So it really becomes part of who you kind of are. And consistency is a way to get there.

Jonathan Wolf: I love that. And I have to say from my own personal experience, having been on this journey with both of you over the last eight years, that this idea of things becoming a habit isn't something I'd ever thought about at all. 

I now realize that, in a way, it's the most important thing. You start to get into this habit, you start to become mindful about what you eat and thinking about that.

I love this idea also that you don't have to be perfect, which means that if you eat something, you know it's not very good for you, you don't sort of give up like in this old world where everything is like counting calories and you fail to count your calories, so it's all over. 

And I love this idea, Tim, that in a way, the better you eat, the more that it's okay to eat some other things from time to time, as long as it doesn't become the dominant part of your diet. 

It's positive, right, and supportive and and achievable. And I think that's also really important for not making food something that we're scared of. Because I think it's pretty sad if you can't also enjoy it. 

Federica Amati: Yeah, exactly. Our bodies are really clever and they have reserves to combat if there's something that's a bit unusual, they can be ready. They have the extra reserves to be like, That's okay, we've got this. 

So also appreciating being kind to yourself and be like, actually I know I've nourished myself, my body's got this. It can take this random chicken nugget feast that is at this birthday party, and there's nothing else to eat. It gives you that flexibility to know that you can take on whatever life throws at you. 

Tim Spector: It gives you a superpower.

Federica Amati: It does, doesn't it? Yeah.

Jonathan Wolf: I would like to try and do a little summary.

I'm going to start with the most amazing thing, and that shocked me. Apparently, I get cancer inside my body every day. 

Federica Amati: Like one or two cancer cells, I think. We have to be clear, it's not like a tumor. Initial changes.

Jonathan Wolf: Understood. Okay. But I get cells that are cancerous, and then my immune system finds that and kills them. And that is part of its job.

High inflammation is a problem because it's almost like it's on too high alert all the time. It's getting distracted by, you know, other things. And that is actually one of the reasons that high levels of inflammation in the long run could increase your risk of actually getting cancer.

Then, Tim, you described this whole laundry list of heart disease and diabetes and depression and dementia. All of these things are now linked to having this inflammation level higher than normal for an extended period. So, clearly not what you want. 

You said there was this recent study saying that your level of inflammation is twice as important as your level of cholesterol for predicting your long-term health. So again, this is really new, really important to think about. 

And Fede, I think you said one of the ways you can tell that your gut is inflamed is actually you can be feeling symptoms. So bloating and indigestion, all of these things that signs that in your gut, something's not going right.

Your gut health is really important here because your gut is playing this, and your gut microbes, the bacteria, are playing this really important role in creating all these chemicals that should dampen down your inflammation and keep it in a healthy range. 

What determines whether that's working well or badly is whether you're eating food that supports the good bugs or food that supports the bad bugs.

Then you gave us these seven examples of foods that really you could start eating right now for spring to reduce inflammation. 

Broccoli, I learned that I should microwave it. There was another complicated method, but that seemed great. And stop for 10 minutes, you know, who has 10 minutes?

Extra virgin olive oil could work as much as Advil. I think that's pretty amazing. Dark chocolate, over 70%. Make sure it hasn't got lots and lots of ingredients.  On the back, is it really highly processed?

Chia seed, even just two or three teaspoons and we got an amazing dessert that I am going to try.

Turmeric, but don't eat it on its own. You actually have to mix it with other spices if you want to have the effect. 

Raspberries, just buy them frozen. Actually, probably better than having fresh sits in the freezer. And you can just add, and you can make things like jam that I had never even thought of.

Red cabbage kraut. The one that sticks out in my mind, and I think, Tim, your point is it's an example of something that's fermented. If these fermented foods really make a difference to your diet? 

Then you said beyond that, as you start to think about how do you fight inflammation, the first thing is there isn't one magic food. You want to have this diversity. So even if you're eating lots and lots of chia seeds, if you're just eating chia seeds, that isn't going to get you there, is it? 

Federica Amati: No. And that's why the chia water thing on TikTok isn't the answer. 

Jonathan Wolf: So 30 plants a week, eating the rainbow, thinking about all of these different foods to support your bugs. Reduce the amount you're reaching of these high-risk processed foods because they're actually pushing up this level of inflammation.

Then you said it's not just food. So sleep is really important. Exercise is really important. 

Then, I think you finished with this wonderful positive message that you want to be consistent, but you don't need to be perfect. And Tim said the 80% rule: if 80% of what you're eating is really in line with this and you've therefore got to good gut health, actually you can tolerate eating the stuff from the kids' birthday party from time to time, and you're going to manage it and you can still keep your inflammation low. 

This can really make a difference to making me feel better in the short run, but also on track for more healthy years in the future. 

Tim Spector: Absolutely. And if people are on a bad diet and they switch to this advice within a few days, they'll notice the difference. And these energy levels and this lack of tiredness is because the inflammation's coming down and there's mood changes. 

Those short-term improvements are telling you that if you keep this going long-term, you will add healthy years to your life.

Federica Amati: Cumulative effect, compound interest. 

Jonathan Wolf: Thank you both so much. I really enjoyed that. As always, I learned some new things today, and  I hope it was useful for everybody listening. 

Federica Amati: Thanks, Jonathan. 

Tim Spector: Thank you.