10 tips to help you live healthier — part 2

In this special two-part episode, we’re taking a journey back through all of our episodes to bring you 10 actionable tips that will have a big impact on your nutritional health. 

Here, in part two, we’ll find out why you should stop counting sheep and how fidgeting can boost your health. These are evidence-backed tips to help you live and eat healthier.

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Episode transcripts are available here.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Jonathan Wolf: Welcome back to part two of our special two part episode, where we uncover the 10 most impactful discoveries from our podcast that you can apply to your life. This episode is part two, so if you haven't already, do go back and listen to part one. Since launching ZOE Science and Nutrition back in March 2022, we've spoken to the world's top scientists and researchers, delving into everything from intermittent fasting to the inner workings of the gut microbiome.

And as a gift to you for this holiday period, The ZOE team has listened to hundreds of hours of conversations to uncover the top ten most powerful ways to change your health. In part one, we learned simple, effective ways to improve your diet. We heard which organic products are worth looking into and why you should be wary of health claims on food packaging.

In part one, we learned simple, effective ways to improve your diet. We heard which organic products are worth looking into and why you should be wary of health claims on food packaging. Here in part two, we're exploring five more brilliant discoveries. I think you're going to be surprised by most of them.

Listen on to find out how many plants you should try to eat each week, how fidgeting can boost your health, and why counting sheep to help you sleep might not be such a good idea after all. Let's dive in.

Tip number six

When it comes to the best cooking oil, go for extra virgin olive oil. Fat. It's a delicious part of our food with an awful reputation. From butter to avocado oil, chances are you'll have some negative associations when you think of fat. And that's because of a decades long smear campaign that linked all fats to weight gain and heart disease.

We now know this was wrong, but where does that leave us as consumers and food lovers? In our episode on fats and oils. Dr. Sarah Berry explored how fat affects our bodies and whether all fats are created equal. I think a lot of us were brought up to feel that fat was fundamentally unhealthy. If we put aside those sort of special magic fats that we need to live and think about the, you know, the majority of things we're eating, like, can fat ever be healthy?

I think we've had this view, I think, you know, saturated fats are bad, unsaturated are good. So can this be healthy and is it as simple as sort of saturated versus unsaturated? Help us to understand how we can figure this out. 

[00:02:48] Sarah Berry: Yeah, so firstly, can fat be healthy? Absolutely. It's a real important component of our diet.

And I think, you know, a lot of us are living with the remnants of this surgence of low fat diets, low fat products in the 80s and 90s. You know, I was a teenager growing up in the 90s. Everything on the shelves was, you know, proclaiming to be healthy because it's low fat and You know, we really need to move beyond this.

The evidence in terms of not just obesity, but in terms of many different health outcomes ranging from cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes does not support any favorable effect of having a low fat diet over having a moderate fat diet. 

[00:03:30] Jonathan Wolf: The number one question we had from our listeners was what are the best oils to cook with?

[00:03:36] Sarah Berry: It depends on what you're cooking, how you're cooking it, um, what temperatures and for how long. As a rule of thumb, an oil that has a lot of monounsaturated fatty acids, so this is, for example, oleic acid, that is particularly high in some types of sunflower oil and olive oil. tends to be a very good oil to cook with.

And the reason for that is because it's a very stable oil. Once you start adding polyunsaturated fatty acids, and remember, these are the ones that have more double bonds, and these double bonds are very easily oxidized, then what can happen is when you cook with an oil that has a lot of polyunsaturated fatty acids, and an example of this is rapeseed oil or some other variety of sunflower oil, what happens is, is the Those double bonds can become oxidized.

And so you get that rancid taste and it's quite obvious. And I don't know whether you've ever tasted that Jonathan, if you've used something that's highly polyunsaturated or, or even fish oil, if it's left out in the air or heated, you can taste it quite easily that it's got some kind of rancid off taste. So from a taste perspective, it's best to use a monounsaturated oil. 

[00:04:49] Jonathan Wolf: So olive oil, sunflower oil, which I think is not used as much in the States, right, as it tends to be in Europe. Is there anything else that fits into those categories that you put it at the top? 

[00:04:57] Sarah Berry: So olive oil, um, you would need to use a hyaluronic type of sunflower oil. And rapeseed oil is still a pretty good oil to use. Now in the U. S. One of the main oils that they use for cooking and one of their main oleic acid, so monounsaturated rich oils is soybean oil. That's one of the most commonly consumed oil in the US. It's homegrown. So it's also good in terms of environmental impact because of it being a homegrown oil.

So I would say olive oil would be the best one. And then in the US soybean oil and in the UK, high elect sunflower oil. Now, something to bear in mind though, is as with all fats, it's all about. The taste, the functionality. And I personally don't like to cook with olive oil because I find it too fragrant.

I find the taste too strong. And what's giving it this taste is all of these great polyphenols. So I would choose to have an oil that works for me in terms of taste. Now, if you like the taste then, and I know you fry with olive oil yourself, Jonathan, a lot, then that's great. It is a healthier option.

[00:06:00] Jonathan Wolf: Extra virgin olive oil is minimally processed and contains lots of healthy compounds like polyphenols. And these could help lower your risk of heart disease, reduce inflammation, and boost your gut health.

Tip number seven

Eat a diverse range of plants every week. Our gut microbiomes are these amazing, busy communities of microorganisms. And what we're learning is that they're crucial for our overall health, and not just when it comes to digestion. The gut microbiome, all those bacteria, also has a big influence on brain health and well being.

It's a very complex area though. So in this episode, I spoke to Professor Nichola Segata and Professor Tim Spector to dive into the underestimated microbiome. So, starting with you Tim, if I didn't have a gut microbiome, would I die?

[00:08:21] Tim Spector: No, but you'd have a pretty miserable life. 

[00:08:24] Jonathan Wolf: Nicola, can I improve my gut microbiome?

[00:08:31] Nicola Segata: Yes, you can. There are several ways to do that, and we are going to learn them. 

[00:08:33] Jonathan Wolf: Fantastic. Tim. Could altering my gut microbes prevent or even treat disease? Absolutely. Nicola, have you discovered gut bacteria that are linked to good health that weren't even known to science a year ago? Yes, many actually.

It's amazing. We're definitely going to talk some more about that. So this is definitely a cutting edge podcast. Tim, do you see a future where everyone has their gut microbiome tested? Absolutely. All right. And then finally, for each of you, what's the biggest myth that you often come across about the gut microbiome and sort of gut microbiome testing?

[00:09:12] Tim Spector: I think that It's that you can diagnose specific diseases with it. And I think that's probably the commonest one. Uh, most people think it's, they criticize it because it's not particularly good at diagnosing a particular type of disease, whether it's diabetes or heart disease or cancer or whatever. And that they're missing the point, really. It's, it's, it's a much better tool at understanding your general health, your immune health. 

[00:09:41] Jonathan Wolf: Fantastic. Yeah, for me, the myth is that the microbiome can tell you everything. It can tell you everything, but only when connected with the other health measures of your body. Got it. So it's, in both cases, you're saying it's giving you this really big insight, but it's not sufficient on its own.

While it is a complicated area of science, there are a few easy steps you can take to improve your gut microbiome. That is boosting your levels of good bacteria. and reducing your levels of bad bacteria. 

[00:10:12] Tim Spector: First, try and eat a diverse range of whole plants. And we think at the moment the optimum is around 30 plants.

We're doing some other studies to see if that's still true now with these new tests, but 30 different plants a week is what people should aim for. Not a problem if you don't always make it, but aim to get it right up. Currently people have about five on average, right? So there's a long way to go. Um, second is, uh, eat the rainbow.

Try and eat colorful plants because of the polyphenols, these defense chemicals in them, which are microbes. eat and as a source of energy, which we didn't know that before. And that includes all kinds of bitter foods as well. Extra virgin olive oil, for example, nuts, seeds, dark chocolate.

[00:11:05] Jonathan Wolf: There's a great challenge for your week. 30 plants in a rainbow of colors. Aim for a wide range of different fruit, veg, beans, whole grains, nuts, seeds, spices, and herbs. Actually, one of my personal favorites this month is a recipe that I found on my ZOE app, which is a mushroom stir fry, which has this fantastic variety of different plants, and the whole thing I can make in 15 minutes.

Tip number eight

Move after eating. If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you'll know that blood sugar is a big topic. And the science in this area is evolving fast. Now repeated big peaks in blood sugar levels after eating can cause inflammation and increase your risks of diseases like type 2 diabetes.

Whereas big dips in your blood sugar after those peaks can make us feel moody and tired and crave all sorts of food that aren't the best for our bodies. Slow and steady wins the race when it comes to blood sugar. It's natural for our blood sugar to go up and down but not to have huge spikes and then huge dips.

So how can we avoid these spikes and crashes? Well, that's exactly what our blood sugar episode explored. It featured Javier Gonzalez. He's a professor of Nutrition and Metabolism at the University of Bath. And his research focuses on the interaction between diet and exercise. Maybe we could just start with, what is blood sugar, and why should we care about it?

[00:12:41] Javier Gonzalez: Yeah, so blood sugar is a main fuel providing, especially our brain with fuel throughout the day. And so when we're not eating, our brain is still using fuel and we need to provide it with that sugar in some form. So when we wake up in the morning, most of that sugar is coming from our liver. Our liver is breaking down its stores of sugar and it's also producing sugar as well, providing the brain with that important fuel.

And then with other types of activities that we do throughout the day, things like our muscles will also need some of that sugar as fuel. 

[00:13:17] Jonathan Wolf: It sounds pretty obvious, therefore it's very important. We all know if your brain stops working, everything else happens, but there's so many different processes in our bodies.

Why do we care about blood sugar particularly? What is it that makes it such a big focus of your study, for example?  

[00:13:32] Javier Gonzalez: Yeah, it's probably because we need to keep our blood sugar within a relatively tight range to maintain health. Too low and our brain doesn't have enough fuel and we can end up going into a coma.

Um, whereas if we have too much blood sugar, then that can cause damage to our blood vessels. So we need to keep it in a tight range and for that reason, at least in most healthy people, we have a load of physiological processes that aim to keep that blood sugar within that tight range. 

[00:14:01] Jonathan Wolf: Blood sugar is really important to understand because it gives us critical insights into our health.

Our blood sugar levels can tell us if our muscles are working well and how our liver is functioning, for example. Food has a direct impact on our blood sugar levels. If a meal has a lot of carbohydrates in it, especially carbohydrates that are rapidly digested, like bread or rice, we might see a big increase in blood sugar levels.

And that's because our bodies are taking those carbs in and breaking them down into blood sugar. A key area of Javier's research is looking at how we can actually control our blood sugar levels through exercise. 

[00:14:38] Javier Gonzalez: When we start any form of exercise, our muscles are increasing the amount of energy that they're using.

So they need energy. To continue the exercise and a large amount of that energy will be coming from the sugar in the blood. So the muscles will start taking up more sugar out of the bloodstream. And so logically, you can immediately imagine that that's going to help control our blood sugar levels. It's a slightly more complicated picture in that our liver will also start producing more sugar to try and provide more fuel to the muscle.

If we do that bout of exercise after we've eaten a meal. then compared to just resting, it will tend to lower our blood sugar levels quite, quite dramatically, actually. So it's quite a potent effect. And actually, there's some really interesting recent research showing that really light intensity exercise, basically fidgeting and moving your knee up and down.

They were calling it soleus press ups, which is the muscle in our, in our calves. If you imagine bobbing your knee up and down, doing that. After eating a meal could drastically lower the blood sugar response about that 30 percent after a meal, so it can be quite a profound effect. 

[00:15:53] Jonathan Wolf: By 30 percent just by like fidgeting my knees around.

[00:15:58] Sarah Berry: I always, unfortunately, eat my food whilst during, uh, Zoom meetings, which is unfortunate for Jonathan, who's normally having to watch me munch away. And then I sit there feeling like, oh my gosh, I'm always telling everyone go for a walk after you've eaten. But what you're telling me, Javier, is that I can just sit here and fidget, which is what I'm doing now, fidget my legs, and that's going to do the job. Exactly. Well, I'm so glad I joined this podcast. That's phenomenal.  

[00:16:25] Javier Gonzalez: Studies have shown just two minutes of walking every 20 minutes throughout the day lowers your blood sugar levels by about 50 percent, whereas this fidgeting of the knee lowers it by about 30 percent. So it's hugely effective, but the more muscle groups that you activate, the more effective it seems to be.

[00:16:42] Sarah Berry: So basically, every 20 minutes, you either go to the toilet or get up from your desk and go make a cup of tea. 

[00:16:50] Jonathan Wolf: That's really encouraging. Even low intensity movement after eating, like a short walk or household chores, can help to lower your blood sugar response. Let's round up with three quick mini tips from Javier on using exercise to manage your blood sugar.

[00:17:06] Javier Gonzalez: Try to do something every day, no matter what it is, would be point number one. I'd say point number two is If that's something can only be relatively low intensity, then try to do that after you've eaten a meal. And then point three would be, if you're able to do higher intensity activity, then you should be able to get some longer lasting adaptations.

Tip number nine

Give your gut a rest. Believe it or not, there's such a thing as the warrior diet. And no, it doesn't mean eating red meat before going into battle. The warrior diet involves eating only raw fruit during the day, before tucking into a huge feast at night. Then there's the 5 2 diet. That means for two days of every week, you severely restrict your calorie intake.

That means for two days of every week, you severely restrict your calorie intake. These diets are both types of intermittent fasting, which you've probably heard of, because a lot of people are really evangelical about it. Which you've probably heard of because a lot of people are really evangelical about it.

Intermittent fasting essentially means restricting the window of time when you're allowed to eat during the day. Proponents say it can result in everything from weight loss to disease prevention, even extending your life. Research certainly supports a number of health benefits, but there is little long term science so far.

It's an exciting area that's full of potential, especially for the gut. For this episode, we spoke to Tim Spector and Gin Stevens, an author and big supporter of fasting. Does intermittent fasting lead to weight loss for everybody? 

[00:19:01] Gin Stephens: Well, weight loss is multifactorial. I love that word because our bodies are complicated. So, intermittent fasting is a great health strategy, but you might need to do some tweaking. For example, your gut health, what you're eating, other things, hormones, all of those play a role. Intermittent fasting has a lot of powerful things that it does in the body, but it doesn't fix every single problem you might be having.

But you can tweak it till it's easy and find your magical weight loss solution. Well, I don't want to use the word magical, but you can find your weight loss solution. 

[00:19:32] Jonathan Wolf: And I told you she was allowed one sentence. I didn't realize she was really good at long sentences. I'll tighten this up from next episode. Tim, are the health benefits of intermittent fasting proven?

[00:19:43] Tim Spector: Yes, although we don't know what goes on long term. So definitely short term. 

[00:19:50] Jonathan Wolf: Are there risks from intermittent fasting? 

[00:19:53] Tim Spector: There are some risks, minimal if you're fairly healthy and it doesn't last very long.

[00:19:58] Jonathan Wolf: The thing to remember with intermittent fasting is that it is an emerging area of research. There's a lot we can't say conclusively, but there are plenty of reasons to be optimistic. 

[00:20:10] Tim Spector: It's all fairly new, so we've only recently moved from animal studies into humans. We've the size of the study so far is actually really small, you know, 50 people, it seems a big study. And of course this means that we can't generalize it to everybody.

We don't know how everybody's going to do well. And as we've always talking on these podcasts, everybody is different to some extent and everyone's circumstances are different. But I think what it's showing is it has enormous potential for everyone, even just by tweaking their meal times, just by 30 minutes.

If they did that over 10 or 20 years could have dramatic effects. So I think it's really important we take it seriously. There don't seem to be much in the way of downsides and huge amounts of upsides. So yes, we're still accumulating evidence. But it's something that I think everyone can self experiment with themselves.

[00:21:05] Jonathan Wolf: Well, Tim, you know, giving up that dark chocolate at 10 o'clock is a big sacrifice from my side. So you've got to understand there is potentially a lot of emotional downside. So I'm excited by the experiment, but I'm not yet sure that this is one I'm willing to commit to.

[00:21:17] Tim Spector: Well, then if you give up your cornflakes in the morning, you can have all your chocolate in the evening.

[00:21:22] Gin Stephens: That's what I was going to say. You just shift your eating window, the direction where you, like, here's where I really want to be able to eat. I really want to have that. Maybe you could have it at 9 PM instead of 10, but you just nudge it this way. Nudge it that way. Boom, you're doing it.

[00:21:37] Jonathan Wolf: We can think of these microbes as the cleaning crew and they need time to go in and repair your gut.

[00:21:45] Tim Spector: What, what happens when you're, you're fasting is some microbes that, uh, don't live off food, but they live off. The debris and the lining of the gut mucosa suddenly come to life. So when suddenly all that snacking's ended and Jonathan's finished his chocolate, thank God we can move on, you know, you know, and get all those other chocolate eating microbes out of the way and, and the cleaning staff come out and there's some microbes like Accermansia that's well known.

Because it has a name, it says Accermansia municiphilia means I love. mucus. So it loves the sugary lining of your gut. So it's going around tidying up, um, your, your gut lining that you haven't rested properly. And if you don't give it a rest, you don't have enough time for these So I think it's, you know, we're just starting to understand the importance of cleaning microbes, really, to come out of the woodwork and tidy up your gut and help it regenerate.

What's interesting is that the same microbes that have this job are also seen to be crucial in preventing diabetes and obesity. So, Akkermansia is one of these microbes that is stimulated when you go on a fast and is now a very trendy, novel probiotic for helping your metabolic health and help you lose weight.

So I think it's, you know, we're just starting to understand Which microbes fit into these categories, but realizing that you're getting a whole new team come out if you give them enough time to come out of the woodwork, tidy up your gut, do all the repair work, and really, you're in much better shape for the next, next time, you know, that chocolate bar comes down.

[00:23:21] Jonathan Wolf: It's a brilliant analogy. So sort of like you've put the trash out overnight and early in the morning, you know, 

[00:23:26] Tim Spector: it's the clean. It's the overnight cleaners in an office that come in and make everything shiny again. You know, it's the offense team in American football versus the defense team. You know, it's giving them time to, to come out so that you got the right team ready there to deal with your body and what it needs to do. And if you, you put it out of sync by eating the way we weren't intended to by eating over 18 hours, it just simply doesn't have enough time to do its job. And I think what we're doing in this fasting is really extending the repairs side of the body. And that's probably the general idea about why fasting is so good and why it has this huge potential in longevity.

[00:24:02] Jonathan Wolf: When it comes to your fasting period, not eating for around 12 to 14 hours, which can include sleeping is a good start. As we mentioned in part one, regularly snacking late in the evening isn't good for your health. You can still drink black coffee, green tea, and water without breaking your fast, but it's best to avoid caffeine in the evening.

And last, but definitely not least:

Tip number ten

A surefire technique to fall asleep. We've got a bit of a curveball for your tenth and final tip here. It's not exactly a nutrition tip, but it is certainly connected to your overall health. It's a technique to help you fall asleep. If you have insomnia or struggle with getting to sleep, you're going to want to give this one a try.

We all know how great it feels to drift off to sleep and wake up feeling refreshed. We feel energetic and focused, ready to take on the day. But the long term effects of bad sleep could be detrimental. And they can have a huge impact on health. Alzheimer's disease, cancer, obesity, heart disease, and type 2 diabetes are all linked to poor sleep.

For this episode, I spoke to sleep expert, Professor Matthew Walker, a professor of neuroscience at UC Berkeley and founder of the Center for Human Sleep Science. He's also the author of Why We Sleep. One of the things you're really passionate about is what happens when people don't sleep enough, right, Matt?

Yeah. So can you talk a bit about this? Because I think we do live in this world where, because of electric light, because of digital devices, we no longer sort of run out of anything interesting to do after it gets dark and therefore probably, you know, clearly just sleep as much as our body wants. Most of us have to work quite hard, in fact, to get as much sleep as I think we would naturally do, apart from maybe my teenage son. He's just fine if I leave him alone. So what happens to people if they don't sleep enough?  

[00:26:15] Matt Walker: So in the body, we know that short sleep or insufficient sleep will change your cardiovascular system for the worse. It will increase your blood pressure. It will increase the speeding contraction of your heart and it will reduce which is not a good thing something called your heart rate variability and so firstly, we see significant impacts on your cardiovascular system.

And this is the reason why short sleep across the lifespan increases a whole collection of cardiovascular disease features, things such as atherosclerosis. And we published a paper on this recently that having just poor quality sleep and fragmented sleep increases inflammation and that inflammation then leads to the buildup.

Plaques in your arteries, and that leads to cardiovascular disease. The next thing we could speak about is the immune system. There is a very intimate association between your sleep health and your immune health. For example, we know that individuals who, um, we've seen some of these experiments as well.

If you limit someone to just four hours of sleep. For one single night, there is a 70 percent drop in critical anti cancer fighting immune cells called natural killer cells. And so that's, you know, quite a concerning state of immune deficiency after one short night of sleep.

[00:27:42] Jonathan Wolf: That's just one night of short sleep.

[00:27:45] Matt Walker: Yeah. And we also know that, for example, and we've just got the data through for COVID and the same is true here. But if you are not getting sufficient sleep in the week before you get your flu shot, you will only produce 50 percent of the normal antibody response. Therefore, rendering that vaccination, you know, far less effective, if not.

Not effective at all. I think the other big finding that's burst onto the scene, and I think it's probably the most exciting finding recently in sleep science is the link between a lack of sleep and Alzheimer's disease. And we do a large amount of this. We have multiple large research programs looking at this at my sleep center.

What we firstly understood is that people who don't sleep. enough who sleep six hours or less, or people with insomnia or people with a sleep disorder called sleep apnea. All of those people have a significantly higher risk of developing Alzheimer's disease in later life. 

[00:28:44] Jonathan Wolf: Matt and his team have been working with our scientists here at ZOE to research the links between sleep, nutrition, and health.

[00:28:50] Matt Walker: The stuff that we're doing together, I mean, it's incredibly exciting because, you know, with a lot of the studies that we and Other colleagues have done in the field when we measure your sleep, we typically will measure your sleep for just a night in the laboratory because it's difficult to constantly track individual humans, you know, night after night after night.

It's especially difficult to track large numbers of them from one night to the next, to the next, to the next. And then it's even harder to. In addition, be measuring lots of changes in their brain and their body as a consequence of that ongoing night to night sleep evaluation, meaning that. We know a lot, what we call cross sectionally.

So we just take a large group of people. We do one night of sleep recording. We measure changes the next day, and we show that there's these associations. What that doesn't really tell you, however, is what is the consequence within an individual of variability in their sleep? Across weeks, if not months, and that's a fundamental question.

Cause that's the way most of us live in our lives. So what I'm saying is that we've not really understood what inter individual differences are within an individual over time, as their sleep fluctuates. What can we learn about that? And how does that relate to things such as the metabolic system and their immune system and their gut microbiome?

That's the type of work that we're able to do in the ZOE collaboration. 

[00:30:24] Jonathan Wolf: One of the things that Matt and his team have found with our ZOE scientists is that breakfast with slightly higher amounts of fat and fiber, but lower amounts of sugar, are more likely to help you wake up and then stay awake throughout the day.

So sleep is important for our health in all kinds of ways that we're still exploring. I don't know about you, but that doesn't exactly help me get to sleep. In fact, it might keep me up at night. So how do we actually drift off? Matt has an amazing evidence back. What's the biggest myth about sleep that most people still believe?

[00:31:00] Matt Walker: There are so many myths, but I think one of the fun myths that has been busted is that counting sheep will help you fall asleep. And there's a great study done here at UC Berkeley, and it wasn't done by me, it was done by a colleague of mine. And what they found is that counting sheep, not only didn't make you fall asleep any faster, it actually took you longer to fall asleep when you were counting sheep, but what they did find was something interesting.

There is an alternative mental strategy. That strategy is taking yourself on a mental walk. And so think about a walk that, you know, really well, maybe it's a walk in the woods or in the forest or a hike or a walk on the beach, and then. Try to really visualize that to the point of, this is me leaving my front door.

I'm walking down the steps off I go. And if you do it in granular detail, move yourself through it. The next thing you remember is your alarm going off the next morning because you've fallen asleep. And it seems to be a quite effective tool. So that's one of the many, many myths that we can bust regarding sleep.

[00:32:28] Jonathan Wolf: So there you have it. Instead of counting sheep to fall asleep, take a mental walk down a really familiar route. Before you know it, you'll have drifted off to the land of nod. And I've tried this a number of times and, uh, I keep falling asleep pretty fast, so I think it's working. And know as you do that, that a good night's sleep is going to have all kinds of great positive knock on effects for your health.

If you enjoyed today's episode and want to dive into each of these topics in much more depth, why not listen to the episodes featured in today's show in their entirety? You'll find links to each of them in the show notes. And if you want easy access to today's tips in the future, we've put them together in a handy guide, which you can download for free.

Simply go to zoe.com/podcast or follow the link in the show notes. As always, I'm your host Jonathan Wolf. ZOE Science and Nutrition is produced by Yella Hewings-Martin, Richard Willan, and Tilly Fulford. See you next time.